Drawing A Dialogue podcast

History Society School Education Cathy G. Johnson + e jackson Fine Arts Arts ETalks A Comics Storytelling Podcasting Education

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Drawing a Dialogue

Beranda serial•Feed

A podcast discussing comics in historical + educational contexts. Updates first Friday of every month, visit comicarted.com for more.

65 episode

#History #Society #School Education #Cathy G. Johnson + e jackson #Fine Arts #Arts #ETalks A #Comics #Storytelling #Podcasting Education

Drawing a Dialogue

39 subscribers

updated 27 hari yang lalu

Beranda serial•Feed

A podcast discussing comics in historical + educational contexts. Updates first Friday of every month, visit comicarted.com for more.

65 episode

#History #Society #School Education #Cathy G. Johnson + e jackson #Fine Arts #Arts #ETalks A #Comics #Storytelling #Podcasting Education

Semua episode

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 58: Freedom to Read RI 1:03:32

27 hari yang lalu1:03:32

1:03:32

Episode 58: Cathy recently spoke at the Rhode Island state house in a press conference supporting the Freedom to Read Act in Rhode Island. The legislation is meant to address book bans and censorship for libraries, schools, readers and creators. On this episode of Drawing a Dialogue, remus and Cathy discuss the bill, its history, and its future. Contact: Email , Instagram , Bluesky Citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2025/4/4/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-58…

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 57: Swann Fellowship and the Library of Congress 1:17:14

8 weeks yang lalu1:17:14

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Episode 57: remus has just gotten back from their awesome fellowship with the Swann Foundation, which supports scholarly research and writing projects in the field of caricature and cartoon. remus shares their exploration the Library of Congress, where they gathered research in the SPX collection and Gale’s Archives of Sexuality and Gender. Join us! Contact: Email , Instagram , Bluesky Citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2025/3/7/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-57…

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Drawing a Dialogue Presents, Episode 9: Karen Czap (Trans Cartoonists in the DIY Scene #6) 1:26:51

12 weeks yang lalu1:26:51

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Karen Czap is an Ignatz Award-nominated cartoonist, author of Fütchi Perf and Four Years. Their coloring work can be found in The Breakaways, Freestyle, BUNT!, and more. Czap lives and works in Providence, RI as a member of the Binch Press / Queer Archive Works studio co-op. In this interview, we talk about the comics community, publishing with friends, conventions, and of course, the X-Men. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2025/2/7/drawing-a-dialogue-presents-episode-9…

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 56: Exploring Romance Through Horror 1:05:25

17 weeks yang lalu1:05:25

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Episode 56: Cathy and remus discuss their recent panel at Comic Arts Los Angeles. Cathy spoke with Silver Sprocket artists Yasmeen Abedifard, Connor B., Lonnie Garcia, and Nick Winn about why horror is a great genre to explore complicated relationships, first dates, and high school crushes in their new books. Contact: Email , Instagram , Bluesky Citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2025/1/3/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-56…

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 55: Catching Up! 1:02:04

21 weeks yang lalu1:02:04

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Episode 55: Cathy and remus catch up about life, teaching, and art practices. remus shares where they’re at with their PhD dissertation and talks about their exciting upcoming fellowship. Cathy talks about squaring the peg of their art and education practice. Topics include being mindful of audiences, the physiognomy of Pixar characters, Kenny makes an appearance, and more! Thanks for listening! For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2024/12/6/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-55 Contact: Email , Instagram , Bluesky…

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Drawing a Dialogue Presents, Episode 8: Carta Monir (Trans Cartoonists in the DIY Scene #5) 1:24:35

30 weeks yang lalu1:24:35

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Carta Monir is a performance artist, performer, and writer. She was a 2022 Tom of Finland Foundation artist in residence. Her work deals with her own transness, disability, and desire. She lives in Michigan. This interview is the fifth of our series supporting remus’ PhD dissertation work. Thank you for joining us! (Note: This episode is for mature audiences.) For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2024/10/4/drawing-a-dialogue-presents-episode-8…

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Drawing a Dialogue Presents, Episode 7: higu rose (Trans Cartoonists in the DIY Scene #4) 1:05:54

47 weeks yang lalu1:05:54

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higu rose is an illustrator, cartoonist, ethnographer, and local terror living in pittsburgh, PA. based in fiction and autobiography, higu’s work focuses on experiences of being Black, queer/trans, and a little bonkers. higu is currently working on YINZ CITY, a graphic novel series about a group of queer and trans people of color. This interview is the fourth of our exciting new series supporting remus’ PhD dissertation work. Thank you for joining us! For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2024/6/7/drawing-a-dialogue-presents-episode-7…

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 54: Teaching in a Comics MFA Program 1:14:04

52 weeks yang lalu1:14:04

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Episode 54: Cathy shares all about her first year teaching in the Visual Narrative MFA program at Boston University! She talks about her new higher ed teaching experiences, how the program is structured, and personal observations of teaching K-12 vs. higher ed. A good listen for current MFA students or people considering it! For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2024/5/3/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-54 Contact: Email , Twitter , Instagram , Bluesky…

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Drawing a Dialogue Presents, Episode 6: Seosamh (Trans Cartoonists in the DIY Scene #3) 1:21:43

1 year yang lalu1:21:43

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Seosamh aka Joe is a butch trans painter, a hypertext enthusiast, and author of dark, surreal, and intimate worlds of denim, leather, and gloss. Among other projects, he and his partner Anka are proud co-authors of the ongoing sci-fi comic, SUPERPOSE. This interview is the third of our exciting new series supporting remus’ PhD dissertation work. Thank you for joining us! For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2024/4/5/drawing-a-dialogue-presents-episode-6 Artwork: https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/59e3e9facd39c3fc494e810e/1df71cad-7033-4e0e-93d8-afdce6a6b21d/joe4.png?format=2500w…

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Drawing a Dialogue Presents, Episode 5: Sunmi (Trans Cartoonists in the DIY Scene #2) 1:06:44

1 year yang lalu1:06:44

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Sunmi is a cartoonist whose body of work explores emotional distances and gender deviant fantasies, within a framework of queer + Korean histories and mythologies. This interview is the second of our exciting new series supporting remus’ PhD dissertation work. Thank you for joining us! For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2024/3/1/drawing-a-dialogue-presents-episode-5 Artwork: https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/59e3e9facd39c3fc494e810e/54285abf-325a-4a50-842d-14a4f1004c19/DAD_sunmi.png?format=2500w…

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Drawing a Dialogue Presents, Episode 4: Emma Jayne (Trans Cartoonists in the DIY Scene #1) 1:16:24

1 year yang lalu1:16:24

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Emma Jayne is an Ignatz and Prism Award-winning cartoonist. This interview is the first of our exciting new series supporting remus’ PhD dissertation work. Thank you for joining us! (Note: This episode is for mature audiences.) For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2023/12/11/drawing-a-dialogue-presents-episode-4…

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 53: Introducing Our New Series: Trans Cartoonists in the DIY Scene 1:01:36

1 year yang lalu1:01:36

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Episode 53: On this exciting episode of Drawing a Dissertation, remus introduces our new series where we interview trans cartoonists from the DIY scene! remus shares their PhD dissertation work, their approach to research, and drops the news of our exciting new DaD Presents project. We hope you join us! For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2023/12/8/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-53 Contact: Email , Twitter , Instagram , Bluesky…

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 52: Accessibility at Conventions 1:14:46

1 year yang lalu1:14:46

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Episode 52: Using Calmer Con in Massachusetts as a case study, Cathy and remus discuss accessibility at comic conventions. Cathy shares details about the event and the superhero costume workshops she taught. What is the difference between providing accommodations for disabled people, versus building something accessible from the start? For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2023/11/3/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-52 Contact: Email , Twitter , Instagram , Bluesky…

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 51: Open Access Archives + SPX Recap 1:10:19

2 years yang lalu1:10:19

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Episode 51: On this episode, remus tells us all about open access archives! What are they, why do they exist, and how can we use them? Also, Cathy and remus recap the Small Press Expo (SPX) 2023 and talk about their experiences with indie comic book conventions in a “post” pandemic world. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2023/10/6/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-51 Contact: Email , Twitter , Instagram , Bluesky…

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 50: Movies About Cartoonists 1:17:24

2 years yang lalu1:17:24

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Episode 50: In celebration of our 50th episode and our 6th anniversary, let’s go to the movies! remus and Cathy discuss movies about cartoonists; not comic book movies, but movies where cartoonists themselves are the protagonist. Funny Pages, Chasing Amy, Monkeybone, and more! For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2023/7/7/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-50 Contact: Email , Twitter , Instagram…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 49: Award Judging + Criticism 1:09:35

2 years yang lalu1:09:35

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Episode 49: Inspired by a recent situation, Cathy and remus talk about what it’s like being an award judge behind the scenes, the differences between censorship and criticism, and challenge future judges to reconsider what’s important. Contact: Email , Twitter , Instagram For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2023/6/2/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-49…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 48: The Teacher Shortage 1:17:03

2 years yang lalu1:17:03

1:17:03

Episode 48: In this episode, Cathy and remus discuss the on-going teacher shortage in the United States. We discuss various theories on why teachers to leave the profession, such as burnout, student behavior, and moral disagreement. What is the shortage, where is it happening, and why? (Note: There are occasional audio hiccups in this episode, sorry about that, my microphone is dying. It’s not you, it’s me.) Contact: Email , Twitter , Instagram For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2022/2/3/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-48…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 47: Comic Art Ed! 1:20:14

2 years yang lalu1:20:14

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Episode 47: In this episode, Cathy shares her newly published book chapter, Comic Art Ed! Making Comics is for Everyone! She discusses the art education approach to K-12 comic book lesson development through five different pedagogical values: teamwork, ideation, literacy, self-actualization, and fun. Cartooning combines drawing and writing into its own unique learning and creating form. This chapter synthesizes the past decade of Cathy’s work helping develop the pedagogical field of making comics in the art classroom! For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2022/12/2/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-47…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 46: The PhD Process 1:15:21

2 years yang lalu1:15:21

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Episode 46: What is the PhD process like? In this episode, remus updates us on their PhD progress, specifically sharing how the qualifying exam goes and how dissertations are written. Cathy shares why she stopped at a master’s degree. Why get a PHD? What is it for? Let’s talk about it! For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2022/11/4/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-46…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 45: Trans Representation in Comics 55:46

3 years yang lalu55:46

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Episode 45: How can a drawing be transgender? Cathy and remus are joined by special guest Fi Stewart-Taylor to talk about the representation of transgender people in comics. Fi talks about what representation and inclusion is, including research into early webcomic trans representation before “the transgender tipping point.” For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2022/9/2/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-45…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 44: AIDS Activism + Comics 1:27:34

3 years yang lalu1:27:34

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Episode 44: In this episode, remus discusses the way queer AIDS activists used art and comics as part of their activism during the the 1980s-1990s. They specifically talk about four art projects: the AIDS memorial quilt, work by activist group Gran Fury, the comics anthologies “Strip AIDS” and “Strip AIDS USA,” and David Wojnaworicz's “7 Miles A Second.” For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2022/8/5/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-44…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 43: Boys Love Manga 1:28:33

3 years yang lalu1:28:33

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Episode 43: The common definition of BL, the acronym for Boys Love, is “a genre consisting of male-male romantic fictions created by women and for women in Japan, previously known as yaoi.” But is it only women? Cathy and remus discuss the history, contemporary status, and transformative power of BL manga for queer representation, using the awesome expert panel hosted by The Japan Foundation NY as citation: “Boys' Love: The History and Transformation of BL in Asia.” Join us! For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2022/7/1/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-43…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 42: Balance + Burnout 1:18:15

3 years yang lalu1:18:15

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Episode 42: A chatty episode, remus and Cathy have a conversation catching up about life! remus shares where they are in regards to academia, new jobs and healing, and Cathy talks about finding balance. Also, are they making comics right now or what?! For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2022/6/3/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-42…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 41: Graphic Novels of the Year 58:39

3 years yang lalu58:39

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Episode 41: In this episode, Cathy shares her graphic novels of the year! Cathy served as a judge for the LA Times Book Prize in the Graphic Novel/Comics category, and will be talking about the nominees and winner, as well as a few other favorites that didn’t make the list. Let’s talk about some good comics! For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2022/5/6/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-41…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 40: Research 1:01:33

3 years yang lalu1:01:33

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Episode 40: In this episode, remus shares how to do your own research! Learn best research practices, what’s up with academic publishing, and where to get your information… for free heheh. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2022/4/1/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-40

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 39: Capitalism + Comics 1:10:58

3 years yang lalu1:10:58

1:10:58

Episode 39: Special guest Ross Hernandez join Cathy and remus to talk about how capitalism shapes the creation of comic books. We learn about different forms of labor, art’s relationship to capitalism, and how the comic book industry mashes these worlds together. Where are we right now, and what are our next steps forward? Capitalism is dying, and we should let it die. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2022/3/4/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-39…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 38: Queer Theory 1:14:38

3 years yang lalu1:14:38

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Episode 38: In this episode, remus and Cathy introduce and discuss queer theory. remus shares the history of queer theory and how it can be used as a framework for thinking about comics and beyond! For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2022/2/4/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-38

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 37: Sports in School + the Rights of Trans Kids 52:52

3 years yang lalu52:52

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Episode 37: Spurred by the recent media attention for the ban of her graphic novel The Breakaways, Cathy leads a discussion with remus on the value of sports in K-12 schools, House Bill 25 in Texas, and the rights of transgender student athletes. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2021/12/3/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-37…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 36: Ableism + Accessibility 1:29:23

3 years yang lalu1:29:23

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Episode 36: In this episode, remus and Cathy discuss how ableism manifests in comics culture and shapes all our lives. Definitions of accessibility versus accommodations are shared, as well as discussion about disability justice in comics and schools. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2021/11/5/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-36…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 35: Fighting White Supremacy Culture 1:05:44

4 years yang lalu1:05:44

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Episode 35: In this episode, Cathy and remus use the work of scholar Tema Okun to look at how white supremacy culture has imbedded itself in our everyday lives, and share how together we can antidote and circumvent its characteristics with anti-racism work. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2021/10/1/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-35…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 34: Where We Are 27:00

4 years yang lalu27:00

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Episode 34: Cathy + remus are back! They talk about teaching during the pandemic, and the past, present and exciting future for Drawing a Dialogue. Thank you for your patience! For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2021/9/3/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-34

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 33: Our Comic Influences 1:31:47

5 years yang lalu1:31:47

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Episode 33: Cathy + remus share their favorite comics that influenced their own art. Cathy talks about 2000s zines + indie comics. remus talks about manga + Homestuck. Additionally, they both touch upon the stresses of being an educator during a pandemic. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2020/10/23/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-33…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 32: Propaganda 1:09:37

5 years yang lalu1:09:37

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Episode 32: Cathy + remus talk about the way propaganda has historically shaped the dominate United States way of thinking. remus discusses the propagandistic role of comics and superheroes in proliferating violent vigilanteism. Cathy discusses how history was taught with propagandistic intention, + shares ways the art classroom can illuminate historical context. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2020/7/10/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-32…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 31: Abolish the Police 36:36

5 years yang lalu36:36

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Episode 31: In this episode, Cathy + remus talk about police abolition, and what comics are capable (and NOT capable) of doing. Comics as an activist tool are discussed, as well as ways educators can work to eliminate police presence in schools. Solidarity forever. Black lives matter. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2020/6/3/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-31…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 30: Distance Learning + Mutual Aid Pedagogy 1:44:45

5 years yang lalu1:44:45

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Episode 30: In this episode, Cathy + remus document the teaching + learning transition to distance learning due to the COVID-19 pandemic. Public university, private school + public school approaches are discussed based on public statements + personal impact. remus presents mutual aid pedagogy work + possibilities for disability justice, + Cathy provides updates on the Providence Public School state takeover + their pandemic response. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2020/5/8/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-30…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 29: Libraries + YA Graphic Novels 57:13

5 years yang lalu57:13

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Episode 29: Cathy + remus discuss the contemporary role libraries play in the popularity of young adult graphic novels. remus discusses how libraries have changed their attitudes toward comics, moving from crusaders to advocates. Cathy talks about the new graphic memoirs Fights by Joel Christian Gill and Gender Queer by Maia Kobabe. She discusses the possibilities these books hold for educators + young adult readers, + using comics as a tool to approach difficult topics. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2020/4/3/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-29…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 28: Public Libraries 1:12:31

5 years yang lalu1:12:31

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Episode 28: On this episode, Cathy + remus discuss public libraries in the United States. remus presents the history of libraries, their purpose for the public + the American Library Association (ALA). Cathy discusses the current services libraries offer the public, including family support, youth services + addressing poverty + homelessness. Cathy also introduces a new segment to Drawing a Dialogue called “Schools Are The Community,” to discuss the current state takeover of Providence Public Schools. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2020/2/14/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-28…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 27: Decolonizing Museums 1:12:51

5 years yang lalu1:12:51

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Episode 27: Continuing from last episode, Cathy + remus further their discussion of the museum by examining decolonization efforts. remus offers real case studies of what museums are currently doing to address colonial pasts. Cathy shares lesson plans that complicate the use of museums in classrooms. The two discuss what decolonizing is, can look like, what is being done, + address the problematic idea that institutions should be saved. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2020/1/3/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-27…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 26: History of Art Museums + Museum Education 1:33:12

5 years yang lalu1:33:12

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Episode 26: Cathy + remus discuss the history of the art museum + museum education. remus discusses museums as an Enlightenment era outgrowth, moving into the display of art in the museum + its purpose. Cathy talks about the history of art museum education + the underlying theories, + how museums can be used in art education today. Both hosts discuss the colonial histories + cultural responsibilities of all museums, + how we can move forward. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2019/12/13/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-26…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 25: Transmasculinity + Child Development 1:21:47

5 years yang lalu1:21:47

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Cathy + remus talk about transmasculinity + gender development in children. remus discusses masculinity through two different trans memoir comics by Higu Rose + Victor Martins, placing the narratives into a new historical canon. Cathy shares the latest in transgender child development research, focusing on younger children, including statistics, books + lesson plans. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2019/11/8/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-25…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 24: Rubrics + Grading 1:29:37

6 years yang lalu1:29:37

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Cathy + remus talk about grading in schools + universities. What is the history of giving students grades? What is their purpose + pitfalls? Cathy + remus discuss how all grades are subjective, talk about different standards that can be used + share various approaches and methods. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2019/9/13/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-24…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 23: Restorative / Transformative Justice 1:21:40

6 years yang lalu1:21:40

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Cathy + e talk about Restorative / Transformative Justice practices + how they interact with comics, schools + communities. e defines RJ/TJ, why it’s important, + discusses ways to remove policing from our communities. Cathy talks about educational uses of RJ/TJ + how schools are microcosms of our larger world. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2019/8/2/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-23…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue Presents, Episode 3: Art + Social Justice Collectives with Priscilla Carrion 1:02:15

6 years yang lalu1:02:15

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Priscilla Carrion is a visual artist, educator + member of many group collectives + non-profits in Providence with a focus on art + social justice. Priscilla discusses her history building community within collectives, starting out as a student + moving towards volunteer, staff + board positions. We discuss local groups Ecas Theater, Sista Fire, New Urban Arts + Girls Rock! Rhode Island. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2019/07/5/drawing-a-dialogue-presents-episode-3…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 22: YA Books + Readers 1:11:36

6 years yang lalu1:11:36

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Cathy + e talk about Young Adult (YA) books + readers! e starts out by sharing the history of the YA genre, how books began to be marketed to an adolescent audience, + who is actually reading them. Cathy then talks about young adults in classrooms, including reading habits, new technologies + how comics can be used to teach a broader understanding of literacy. For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2019/6/7/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-22…

Drawing a Dialogue

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Drawing a Dialogue, Episode 21: Labor + Capitalism in Comics 1:14:02

6 years yang lalu1:14:02

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Happy May Day! Cathy + e talk about labor and comics. They begin by defining what capitalism and commodification is. e goes over the history of attempts by cartoonists to unionize, then Cathy discusses theory about why we should make art as a community. We are stronger together! For episode citation: https://comicarted.com/blog/2019/5/3/drawing-a-dialogue-episode-21…

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