Whitney La Rocca: Patterns of Power, world class writing mentors, and a lot of laughs

CCIRA Literacy Conversations

*Links to resources to be added soon!

00:00:00 Molly Rauh
Hello and welcome back to this CCIRA Literacy Conversations podcast. I'm your host, Molly Rauh with my co-host...

00:00:08 Jessica Rickert
...Jessica Rickert. Today's podcast features, Whittany La Rocca, Whitney's work centers around authentic reading and writing instruction. Whitney shares, ideas for grammar instruction, blending science of reading and balanced literacy, and the Patterns of Power resource. Well, welcome Whitney. We're so excited to have you on the podcast. Why don't we start with you just telling us a little bit about your background.

00:00:35 Whitney La Rocca
Okay, well, thank you. And thank you for having me on this podcast. So I'm excited to be here my background, I guess, you know, starts since since you're up in Colorado, I can say, I'm originally from Wyoming. So we're formerly neighbors. I graduated from the University of Wyoming and then moved to Texas. And that's where I'm at no. I live in the Houston area. I have over 20 years of education experience. I I've taught I've been an instructional coach, and now I'm a full-time consultant, author, staff developer, co-author of the Patterns of Power family of resources. So Patterns of Power, Patterns of Power Plus. And recently we came out with Patterns of Wonder that I got to take the lead on for emergent writing. So my passion is definitely just supporting children as they find their identities and develop their identities in this world of literacy. So I'm super excited to continue to do this work all over the place, rather than just in my little bubble outside of Houston.

00:01:43 Jessica Rickert
So I'm wondering, because you talk about authentic grammar instruction, and I think teachers really struggle with authentic grammar instruction and not just putting a worksheet in front of them, but integrating it. So what are your thoughts on authentic grammar instruction?

00:02:01 Whitney La Rocca
Absolutely. You know, we're told so often as teachers well just teach grammar in context and keep it authentic. And we're like, okay, sure, how do we do that? What does that really mean? Right? And so when we think about authentic grammar instruction, what we want to do is really lean on brain research and the research that goes into education and how our brains are wired to learn. And if we look at these cognitive structures in our brain, we have this, this structure of observation. And so we get to observe what writers do. And that's what we begin with. We begin with, published children's literature, the books that we love that are in our classrooms. We share some sentences from those or with the emerging writers we share an entire page from a picture book where we look at both pictures and words. And we just ask our students, what do you notice? And we get to have these authentic conversations where students get to really just talk about what they're noticing, what the brain is observing, right? And this power of talk, this power of inquiry, just drives this instruction. And through these observations, our students begin to recognize what writers do. And we get to pull in grammar into this conversation as well. When we do pick sentences or a page from a book, we're very particular about what we choose, right? And so we're going to curate a sentence or a page that really demonstrates this grammar skill that we're looking to show off. But we don't tell our students what that is, because we want them to kind of discover that on their own through inquiry. And that's how this process begins with this authentic grammar instruction. We begin with authentic literature, and we have these authentic conversations within the context of reading and writing about what authors do, why they do that, how they do that. And then we move into comparing and contrasting that to something else, like another piece of writing, right? We're leaning in on the comparative analysis structure, cognitive structure of our brain, which is our brains are wired to learn through, compare and contrast. So we move into that to really retain that information even more. And then we turn around and authentically produce a piece of writing that looks like the model. So we get to imitate that, and we can imitate that together. And then we invite our students to turn around and try it out on their own. And we celebrate this. And our celebration, again it's through this conversation, the sharing, this displaying of the authentic writing that they have tried out, and we turn around and invite them to continue to play with this skill in other parts of their day of writing. In writing workshop, in writing in the content areas - continue to produce more writing in different ways, using that skill. And then we get to end with this conversation around editing and what that really looks like. So rather than starting with the wrong and correcting, correcting, correcting, correcting and focusing on right or wrong, we invite, you know, risk taking, because we're celebrating the craft of writing rather than wasting our time correcting errors. And with that celebration, and with this authentic move looking at what writers do and the craft that they use, we are able to move towards correctness. And we have to, as teachers have this understanding too that every writer has approximations along the way even adult writers, right? So we never have perfect writing. We're always moving towards correctness, but we're starting with correct writing to teach that, rather than starting with the wrong. So, in context, within the frame of reading and writing and using authentic literature and asking our students to produce authentic literature as well, and they lean on their scaffolds when they need to. And when they're ready to move away from that, they take those risks and try it out. And then we can. We can teach into those risks that they are trying.

00:06:30 Molly Rauh
So knowing that you said, you know, we, it's an inquiry process, and we should start by observing and know, you know, every teacher has some of their like favorite books, or some of their go os. Yeah. So if you were going to share some of your favorite, some of your go-to is with our listeners, what might be some of those, you know, awesome books that you would choose for our class of emerging readers.

00:06:55 Whitney La Rocca
Oh, my goodness, it's so this is this is so hard for me, because you, you both can see like my background or what's behind to be right? I'm in my home office right now, and the wall is just covered with books. I am a book, a holic. So for me, just to share a couple is like ridiculous. I could go for hours of my favorites. My biggest, my biggest tip, first of all, is a mentor text is a text that you love. So I could said, I could share text all day. I could send you lists and everything, but honestly, you have to love it for your students to really love it too. And so those books that are in your classroom, if you really love them, then they're probably a really good mentor text to use. And but I also will say it that we need to be diverse in the text that we choose, right? And we need to make sure that we have a wide representation and of people in the books that we use. We want to be inclusive. We want to make sure that our readers see themselves, and they see others. And this is how we build community. And this is how we build empathy through the books that we I said. Just those little tidbits before I do share some titles with you. So few for emergent writing, I guess, some of my very favorites and "Quit Calling Me a Monster" by Jory John, one of my favorite mentor texts that really could be used for anything. There's a lot of teaching points inside of that Troy Cummings', "Can I be Your Dog" is one of my favorites. He also has "Can I be Your Cat" or along that line. I'm waiting on it. I waiting on the paper back to show up to my house next month. So but there's a second one about a cat cat, as opposed to a dog. Anything by Mo Willems hands down, right? The Pigeon books, the elephant piggy books, pretty much anything there. I also love they, these, the Yasmine books, the these ones by Saadia Faruqi. I'm not sure that I pronounced her last name, right? But it's a series, the Yasmine books I absolutely love for younger readers as mentor texts as well. For older readers, I really enjoy pretty much anything by Matt De La Pena is one of my favorite authors, for sure. And I also love Peter Brown's "The Wild Robot" is probably one of my favorite novels, as well as Katherine Applegate's "The One and Only Ivan," but even more so, "The One and Only Bob," I like that one even more than Ivan, which I didn't think I could like anything more than Ivan. But Bob is just another one as well. So those are just some off the top of my head that I absolutely love. My some of my favorite authors might go-tos. But like I said, I could pull so many books off and just keep talking. So.

00:09:58 Molly Rauh
You had talked too about, you know, when they're observing, especially with our younger, I called them emerging readers before. But we're really talking about emerging writers. Like you said.

00:10:10 Whitney La Rocca
Both. Readers and writers and writers are readers. We make that reading-writing connection in everything that we do.

00:10:15 Molly Rauh
When you're working with, you know, some of the really and honestly, I would probably still even do it with my high school kids looking at pictures specifically. You know, I think some teachers are really skilled at analyzing images as kind of a component of writing and others, you know, maybe that's something they're still trying to build. And I'm thinking, you know, this is one of my favorite books, so you said, you talking about books that you love, there's a book called "This is Not My Hat."

00:10:53 Whitney La Rocca
Yes, I have it on my wall.

00:10:53 Whitney La Rocca
It's very like it's an inference sort of book, because so much of what's going on in the story isn't in the written words. It's visual. How, how do you bring together something like that when they're looking at writing when the story isn't fully in the writing? Like, what would the conversation look like for a book like that? If I want to bring in one of my favorite books to talk?

00:11:17 Whitney La Rocca
Well, as you think about this visual literacy. And with graphic novels being so popular here, there's so much more in those pictures than there are in the words as well, and so much thinking that occurs with students who read graphic novels. So I'm a huge proponent of graphic novels as well. So I just think, when we take a look at that again, it's that observation. So, you know, what do you notice? In older students, if we're having conversations around grammar, they're probably going to lean more towards the words that you're sharing an entire page. And I like to think about this process, even outside of teaching grammar, right? This is an inquiry process. What do you notice? Compare it and contrast it with something else, turn around and try it out, right? So that's that's the inquiry part of it. So we can share. I was thinking, I was working with some junior high students not too long ago, and we were talking about I wanted, but we had to a lesson on flashbacks, right? So I actually just put up a page from Jerry Craft's "Class Act" and where he does, he has a flashback and around, the flashback he has like a wavy line. And so they're bell ringer when they came in was just a what do you notice the authors doing on this page? Right? That's all it was. What do you notice? And so they wrote in their notebooks. You know, a lot about, kind of the meaning of what's going on the back story of the student, what they were gathering just from that one page, which so much was in the pictures versus the words themselves. But and but it was interesting, none of them really noticed that little move around the flashback. But they did realize that he was flashing back to something different. And so just that what you know is conversation then moved us into. Well, this is called a flashback and look what Jerry did for us as readers, right? And he made this wavy line. So we actually transferred that over to text. When you did, we did a compare contrast. We moved to where we were just looking at text itself and finding the flashback. And we actually drew the squiggly line. So if you think about about that, that's, you know, that's that visual literacy of what's going on. So if we have books where we're looking at pictures as well, when we asked, what do you notice? You can say, you know, look at the words. But also look at the pictures. What do you notice is happening here in both. Now with emergent readers and writers, the writing that they're doing is mostly pictures as they're learning that there's this thing called letters. And these letters make words. And these words make sentences, right? So when we're looking at really emergent writers, they're just scribbling for their writing. They have this understanding that there's this thing called writing, but they don't have this understanding that there's these letters, you know, these symbols that make letters that tie the sounds yet. And so when we're asking them to look at pictures and what we're doing, we're still looking at the words as well. But their eyes tend to look more at the pictures, because they're not reading these words yet. So we get to lean in on what it is they're noticing, and then we get to develop their oral language through those pictures. So when they're using the pictures in their own books and say, we're working with nouns, right, it's a focus brace we might use is I tell about people, places and things in my story. And so they have these scribbles on the page. Well, as we're developing the oral language, they can be bringing in people, places and things into their language as their sharing, what's in their pictures. And that's just the, the, the foundation of grammar that were working on with our students.

00:14:55 Jessica Rickert
Well, in all of this is reader like based in readers' and writers' workshop and balanced literacy. What - something that's pushing in on education in Colorado and other places is Science of Reading. So how do you, how do you see merging those two things? Because science of reading is here to stay and whatever people think of it. But then it's, it seems like if they're trying to push out balanced literacy, and what you're talking about is these really great authentic experiences for kids. So what are your thoughts on that?

00:15:29 Whitney La Rocca
Well, we definitely have this pitch for a Science of Reading everywhere. And what I will say is the science of reading is attached to Scarborough's rope, right? And so to have skilled readers, we have to weave in the phonics. But we also have to leave in what we call language comprehension. And when we look at the language comprehension side of it that is developing this language of having an understanding of syntax and structure and all all of these pieces, you know, of developing how language should sound that fluency piece when we're reading. Well, we're not going to just get that fluency peace unless we are read aloud to right? And so read aloud happens during balanced literacy. And guess what? We need that read aloud to dive into that language comprehension side of the science of reading. And there are so many components in that language comprehension compre- "muuh" (sound to indicate tongue-tied moment) , the comprehension side, where a lot of balanced literacy components come in. I do see the need for a strong phonics part of your day. We need that, right? Our students definitely need to be able to decode it. They shouldn't just be guessing, but it definitely can be weaved together. And honestly, one of my favorite, it works out there right now that I go back to almost on a daily basis, because as a consultant, I'm getting calls constantly, because I do, my consulting is around balanced literacy and reading and writing workshop. And so I get calls all the time. Well, you know, we're really being told we have to do science of reading. How can we mix and match that? And the it's called "Shifting the Balance" by Kari Yates and Jan Birkins. If you haven't heard of it yet, I highly recommend you check it out, "Shifting the Balance" Stenhouse Publishers is the publishing company? But what they do is they share the research behind the science of reading, and then they give, and then they show how that can be balanced with balanced literacy. And there's actually actually six shifts that they dive into of how you can shift your balanced literacy to also follow and dive into this research behind science of reading. And it's beautiful I, like I said, I refer to it almost on a daily basis. It's definitely one of my favorite art pieces of work out there right now as we maneuver through these reading wars. What I will say is there needs to be a balance, right? So we don't need to be at one end or the other. It really needs to come together. There are some really good things with science of reading that I do believe in, but I am also my heart is with reading and writing workshop could, because when we're talking about authentic authenticity and we're talking about engagement, that's where that happens, right? And if we really dive into emergent reading and writing this writing that they're doing through their pictures and through their oral rehearsal, that's not going to happen if we wait until they can write CBC words, right? And so we don't want to stifle them because they're not yet writing words, encoding words or decoding words, right? We want them to be able to go ahead and develop that language comprehension through Reading the pictures as well as writing through pictures.

00:19:00 Molly Rauh
Oh, and this is this is more for listeners. This is not for you so much Whitney. But if you are looking for some cool science of reading strategies that you could maybe marry with what Whitney's talking about, we have another podcast with Jessica help me with the name, because it just fell out of my head. I had it a minute ago -Katie Garner. We talked to Katie Garner, and she's got these great little strategies to help kids access those sounds before they're you know, technically, I'm doing air quotes. You guys can't see me but air quotes before they're technically ready. And so, you know, that's that's a great resource. But I'm with you. I like, I'm such an inquiry, like my practice as a teacher is very inquiry-based and I, you know, I love Patterns of Power and the work that you and Jeff Anderson have done, and you know, that like, like you said, it's engaging work that can kids get excited about it. And, you know, Jeff, that I've made no secret about this. Jeff is, we'll see if you can beat him. This is your goal. You gotta beat him.

00:20:06 Whitney La Rocca
I don't - I don't think I can.

00:20:06 Molly Rauh
Jeff is my favorite podcast episode that I've recorded.

00:20:11 Whitney La Rocca
I can't beat Jeff. He's my favorite too. I absolutely love him. He's my mentor. I have learned so much from him, and when people asked me to come present and they're like, you know, we've seen Jeff, we really want you. And I'm like, okay, but, you know, I'm not Jeff. RIght like, not even close, just so incredible. I could listen to him all day. And I just laugh constantly, right? You know, he'll just have you rolling over. I love it when we present together, because I just almost pee my pants every time, because he's so funny, but I absolutely love him. We did. We had a webinar together this afternoon, and we talked on a daily basis. We're like our we're the married couple who are the we're definitely the work husband and wife there. And so we it's a lot of fun. But yeah, I can't beat Jeff, you can't don't even put me try to like put me there, because I'm not even close.

00:21:04 Molly Rauh
I won't make you do that. But I'm still enjoying this a lot so far. So, absolutely I won't make you compete with Jeff.

00:21:10 Whitney La Rocca
And if you want to laugh more, you know, we have they he and Travis, who's the co-author for the Middle School patterns of winter. They host the podcast as well, called the POPCast. Which is the Patterns of Power podcas: the POPCast and they have you rolling. But the episodes are about 15 minutes long. And they're all and Patterns of Power. So they just have you you rolling. They brought me on to talk about Patterns of Wonder. They've brought Caroline on to talk about Spanish, you know, they've brought on some brain researchers that kind of bring in everybody, but it's those two and their two goofballs. So they really have a good time with this podcast. And it's a lot of fun to listen to.

00:21:52 Molly Rauh
Well, I'm definitely going to have to give that a try. And I will also, this is the first time in a while. When I've had Whitney, you've given me like, you might have seen me like frantically writing things down. This will be the first time in a while where I'll have show notes with links to all kinds of resources. So thank you for sharing already, like so many names and books and resources, because I love to get to link those together for our audience so that they can access even more than we can talk about in, you know, a short podcast session.

00:22:23 Whitney La Rocca
Well, there's so many people doing so many good things out there. I just I love to just share what's going on out there in classrooms and out in the professional writing world. And it's just, it's just amazing, even though this year is just incredibly difficult for teachers. And I know that I see that I just love that they're still, you know, a little bit of excitement still out there. And I just want to share and celebrate that as often as possible.

00:22:50 Jessica Rickert
Well for our listeners that don't know what Patterns of Power are -is in. You've been talking about that. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

00:22:58 Whitney La Rocca
Yeah. So Patterns of Power is a resource. It's a professional book, but it's really professional resource. And Jeff and I created Patterns of Power for grades, one through five first. So that was our first one that we created together. And it really came from the work that he did with everyday editing and mechanically inclined. And just the back story behind that I was an instructional coach at the time on an elementary campus. We were struggling on our campus because we were using a lot of daily edit, daily oral language, worksheets, and we just weren't seeing a transfer of skills to their writing. And we were frustrated because we were using writing workshop, and it just it was frustrating for us. And I was reading his work. And I and I told my teachers, I said, hey, there's this guy out here who's doing some pretty cool stuff, and we're using mentor texts already. And during writing workshop, you know, this approach makes sense. What do you think we give it a try? And so for? And they said, sure, of course, we're willing. So I just I created some lessons, you know, at the lower grade levels and along the lines of his work, and they started using it, loved it. He came to my district. He and I got to talking, and he invited me to write this book with him, which was really exciting just to, because, Molly, just like you, I love him, right? I go back to my notes before I knew him of just the sessions. And there's so many exclamation marks in my notes, because he just had you so excited and energized and motivated. So I couldn't wait to do this work. So we came out with that. And the reason why we called it a resource over a professional book is because the professional reading that's in this book is a very short amount. We know teachers don't have time to do all of this professional reading. So we have about 50 pages that's the professional reading, and the other 400 pages are ready-to-use lessons that you could turn around and use tomorrow. Every lesson follows the same process and we call it the Patterns of Power process. It's this inquiry process that I referred to earlier where we begin with invitation to notice, we invite our students to notice what they observe in the sentence that we choose. And through that conversation, they discover this move that writers make, which is tied to grammar. And so we introduced in that Focus Phrase for them. And we learn, you know, like, "I use nouns to show people, places, and things" that's a focus phrase. And now we have a better understanding standing of what nouns are, rather than starting our lesson with okay writers. Today we're going to learn about nouns, pull out your notebooks. Let's do a three column chart, right? People places and things, you know know, we're going to start with just this sentence, and ask, what do you notice? And through that conversation, they discover this. And then we move into the invitation to compare and contrast where we compare and contrast that mentor sentence to another example, and continue our conversation around what they notice, which also leads back to our Focus Phrase, then you have the invitation to imitate where we imitate that model together. So that's where we create our own piece of writing. Thunder cracks Oh, my goodness, sorry, we're having a thunderstorm right now. That was a really loud thunder. My dog is freaking out. We have really bad thunderstorms down here. I'm sorry. So the invitation to imitate were imitating together using that Focus phrase, keeping that Focus Phrase in mind, they turn around and imitate on their own. So then they turn around and try it out on their own. And we celebrate that. And then we move into the apply where they go ahead and try it out in other areas. And we come back at the end for this conversation around editing. And our editing is still isn't about right or wrong, but it's about meaning and effect, and really thinking about, you know, when we don't put a period here, how does that affect the meaning? Or what effect does this have on the reader? So these conversations give way to editing to where students actually really edit their work. So often, our students think they're writing is perfect. There are no mistakes in my writing, and we hand them and editing checklist. And they check yes, all the way down, right? And when we look at their writing and there's nothing, they haven't edited, anything. But when we use these Focus phrases and we use this process and ending with that conversation well, and then they have a better understanding of what they really meant to do as editors, and they take more care, and they're more intentional with the editing that they do. So all of our lessons in Patterns of Power follow that process, and we have over seventy five lessons in Patterns of Power. And then we wrote Pattern of Power Plus, which were grade level specific. And that's where, like I was, Patterns of Power was Jeff Anderson with Whitney La Rocca. So my name was real tiny. Then with Patterns of Power Plus, I became an "And" so my name was the same size. And Jeff tells everyone I graduated from a preposition to a conjunction, and that grammar really does matter, right? And then, while Jeff and Travis were working on Patterns of Power for Middle School, I got to work, take the lead and become have my name first and work on Patterns of Wonder for emergent writers. So it just continues to grow. I guess I and I'm allowed to say it. Now we have Patterns of Power, Molly, for high school coming out. Yes! Nine through twelve and is in production right now. So it's supposed to be soon coming out. I don't, I can't tell you exactly when, but I know it's soon because it's been turned over to production. So...

00:28:47 Molly Rauh
And to all of you that couldn't see me like mouth, jaw dropped, hands to face, like so excited.

00:28:55 Whitney La Rocca
Yes, I know. I knew you would be excited. I couldn't wait to tell you that. So, yes, we're your pre-k through 12. We will be very soon with this process. And that's what's so awesome is the process is the same at every grade level. The difference is the layers of complexity that we add into it, right? And that's what makes it so powerful as well.

00:29:17 Molly Rauh
Well and you can tell, you know, I'm, I teach high school, but I still know your work, love your work. You know, it's something that I've you know, obviously I go to CCIRA, and I take a lot of of different strategies from a lot of different grade levels and adapt them. But it's so nice when somebody has also done that work for me and I can go. Oh, I can do that so much better, like you guys are brilliant in ways that I'm not.

00:29:40 Whitney La Rocca
Well, when we encourage that to, we encourage you, you know, to start with the lessons we created. But once you have a sense of how this process goes, go into the books that you love and find sentences, you know that you love or invite your students to find sentences and in move, continue with the process on your own as well. So we don't believe in scripted teaching at all. And so we want this. That's why it's really a process. Yes, we have lessons to support the process. But that's the process that makes it so powerful. And I always, when I signed books, I always sign it with "The power is in the process," because that's really what it is. And you have to trust that process as well. When you think about transfer, right? I so agree with that.

00:30:26 Molly Rauh
So that gets me to think thinking about

00:30:29 Molly Rauh
that creative process, because you said, when you got started, you know, you had kind of looked at some of Jeff's work, and you created some lessons. And that, you know, just sort of over the years has snowballed into this fantastic, impressive, awesome career. I'm so like, I'm jealous of all you've accomplished, and that you got to graduate.

00:30:49 Whitney La Rocca
It's so exciting. It's been really fun. My mom the other day actually said, you know he's really giving you this gradual release of responsibility, and that's exactly it. That's what it was. My mom's a former teachers as well - it's the language, right? She's retired now, but she's like a you know, he just he took you under his wing, and he slowly released you a little bit more to go out and do this work. And and that's what it is. And it's the same thing with the process as well. It's a gradual release.

00:31:18 Molly Rauh
Yeah. But thinking back to the beginning of your process as a learner in, in creating this, could you tell us a little bit about those first couple initial lessons, and then maybe what hasn't changed or evolved, or what you've learned, kind of as you've grown? TAnd you know, tell us about your learning process.

00:31:36 Whitney La Rocca
Sure, my gosh, there's so much. So when I first created just the lessons on my own, where I was taking his work from Everyday Editing and Mechanically Inclined and just trying to think at, you know, at an elementary - lower elementary level, what this could look like, you know, we interpret things so differently. And so when I was doing the notice, I actually made three days of noticing where we were noticing three different texts all around the same skill. And and then the compare contrast, we use those, but still, you know, continue to compare contrast. And and the he came in, I remember when he came and did, you know, some PD around this work with us, and I had kind of an aha moment. And I was like, oh, my goodness, you know, my lessons I'm trying to do too much, much like this, you know, it's it doesn't need to be that much. I'm kind of overdoing that notice, you know that we need to get we need to get past that, and really into the work that the students are actually doing, because that's where the power is. And so I, that's kind of what got us started. He also talked about the focus phrase, which I, that was something new that wasn't in Everyday Editing. And so he was definitely kind of growing and doing some work around this as well. And so I took one of my first grade lessons, and I revised it after that PD. Yeah, I went back, and I revised it, and I added in a focus phrase, and I took out some of the other things and completely revised it to match more of what he shared in the PD when I had a better understanding rights. And and that's the power behind hearing the actual authors. Like you learn, you're like, oh, that's what that meant. And so I sent him the lesson, he and I had talked, you know, at the PD and everything. So he kind of knew my name at least because I was, he came to my school. So so I was kind of in charge of making sure he got lunch, right? The important things. And so I sent him a lesson and said, hey, you know, after this PD, I really have been thinking more about some of these lessons I've created. Can you take a look at this first grade lesson and give me feedback? I've added a focus phrase. I've kind of changed some things up. Let me know what you're thinking here. I'm because I really just wanted his feedback on this. You know, I'm I am I on the right track? And that lesson is actually what he emailed me back and said, I really want to talk to you, what's your number? And that's where that got into wow. You know, you and I are on the same page here. This is, you know, I can really take your lower elementary experience and mix it with mine, Upper Elementary and secondary experience. And we could do something here. So as I'm think of those early lessons in that early learning, that's for me. It was just going back and trying it again. It's that revision that we do as writers, right? And then when he and I sat down to actually work Kirk, you know, I was kind of nervous three getting honestly, I was like, oh, my gosh damn good, right lessons with him. And we sat side by side at his table. But Jeff is just so open and and wanting to learn as well. I mean, he's been doing this work for ever, but he's still open and wanting to learn more and wanting to learn from others. So he really was asking, you know, what do you think about this? And what lessons do you have? Maybe we can mix some of these together. And so I just kind of learned even more about how you just have to write. You just have to get it out. So, you know, don't don't worry about if it's right or wrong, just get it out, get it out there. And because then you can revise then that's definitely something I have learned. I will say, as that gradual release of responsibility as I took on Patterns of Wonder, really took the lead on that. I sat with a blank screen for a really long time, and I had a really hard -it was all in my brain, and the editor would call and say, "how we doing? Haven't seen anything yet." I'm like, it's all right here in my brain. It's percolating. And he's like, well, percolate that onto paper, please. And so once I got going, though, I was really able to continue that work. And as we, Jeff and I are kind of working on something else like I'm not sure if I can really say what else is coming. But there may be something else coming soon. And it's amazing how much easier it is now for me, right? I just sit on, and I just go to town on these lessons on we're working on around revision. So just a hint, and I'm able to I'm much more confident in what I'm doing now, and that gradual release of responsibility, adds confidence, right? I've had him when I've needed him. And as he let me go a little bit more, I grew with more and more confidence. And now I feel really strong about what I do.

00:36:21 Molly Rauh
I love that your own process connected to, you know, again, that writing process. And I also just love that you were bold enough to like, maybe like, I just need to be braver and be like, hey, here's this cool lesson I created based off from your work. What do you think? The thing like? The mentors? Because you gained this awesome mentor because you were just brave enough to send a lesson and say, hey, I could use some feedback.

00:36:48 Whitney La Rocca
But really, that's all I'm working for. I never dreamed that this would happen like I, of course, it was in my dreams. But I never, when I sent that was like thinking it what happened? Right? I really was just looking for feedback. So when he said, I need to talk to you, I was like, uh oh, I thought it was going to be terrible like he didn't want to put it in writing, right? It's. So then, when I talk to him, he's like, you know, I really think we need to do some work together. And I was like, wait, what? Hold up, what? And that's when he went into, you know, well, it's going to be Jeff Anderson with Whitney La Rocca and made a point that my name was going to be very small. And I said, I didn't care just the fact that I would get to work with him and learn more from him. I really saw this as a way for me to learn more. And I mean, I have definitely learned more, way beyond what I had expected back then. And like, I think, it was 2014 or 15 or something, when all of this started between he and I. So.

00:37:45 Molly Rauh
Well, I'm thinking, even just the feedback on the lesson, forget publishing. But just like, learning from someone like Jeff or any other, you know, educational- that's a theme we have on this podcast is educational heroes. And...

00:37:58 Whitney La Rocca
Yes, I encourage everyone to ask for feedback. Don't be afraid to do that, whether it's from someone in your school or someone outside of your school, and it don't be afraid to just reach out and say, Hey, can I have some feedback on this? Because that's how we grow. And, you know, we are. We're as smart as the people in the room. Umm, right? And if we're not asking for feedback, if we're not seeking other opinions and and, you know, working towards this growth, we're not helping our children. Right? So It ultimately, it's about our students. And if we seek feedback, then we're also putting that good model out there as we encourage our students to do the same,

00:38:44 Molly Rauh
Absolutely. And that, you know, I guess my brain is very much into like connecting to some of our old podcasts today. One of our recent ones was with our Early Career Network, liaison or whatever. we call her role, and we were talking a lot about just those conversations and the learning we can get from collaborating with some of the newer educators, because they've had, some of those...One, they've got some new learning that maybe we've missed out on. Two, they have a lot of of those techniques are fresh in their mind, you know, things that we know, but maybe we've forgotten to do as we get, you know, into sort of the daily patterns of our work. And so it can be so refreshing to sit down and collaborate with someone who's just sort of in a different space and place in teaching, because like it improves my practice so much even, just, you know, looking over lessons of some of my newer colleagues, or I all the time. I'm like, hey, come look at this. Tell me what you think and getting feedback. And I think that goes for any level, you know, whether it's reaching out to you, or reaching out to Jeff for reaching out to the teacher, down the hall? I think sometimes we forget how much we can get from just a fresh set of eyes from our awesome colleagues who have strengths that aren't our strengths like, I don't know, I'm a very collaborative kind of person.

00:40:12 Whitney La Rocca
I am too. And I just think too, you know, the you know, I've been in this for a while now. So my former students, I remember being a coach, and we were hiring my former sutdents. My like former third graders were now becoming teachers at my school, and I just reached, just learning from them. I learned from them when they were kids in my third grade class, but I also learned from them when they were my colleague. It's just all about learning from others. And I think that's important that we learn from our younger teachers. But we also take time to learn from our students that are in our class as well, because they can teach us a lot too.

00:40:45 Molly Rauh
I love that I, you know, one of my favorite questions to ask my students is just "What are other teachers doing that, I could bring to my classroom to make it better. And a lot of times, they're like, "No, nothing, miss, you're great." But every once in a while, they have, they remember something cool that another teachers done it. And I'm like "score!"

00:41:04 Whitney La Rocca
Yeah, I want to know more about that.

00:41:07 Molly Rauh
Yeah, I was talking to one of my and I can't remember what he said. But he came to me. We did this we, co taught a lesson. So we mixed our two classes together and co-taught this lesson the last two days. And he he came to me afterwards and he said, okay, I have this really great feedback from this kid, and I wanted to tell you about it so that if I forget, you'll at least remember, oh, it was about visuals to go with. It was this big sort of geography thing. And they were learning about Imperialization and the countries that they were sort of trying to imperialize and grab. It was just like names written on note cards. And this kid would be said, it would be so cool if we had like a picture visuals to go with it. So, you know, we had a little more sense of what we were grabbing, and he's like, that was such good feedback, because he's like, of course, we could do that like that makes a lot of sense. And you know, it's little things. And, you know, that doesn't quite connect with your work of literacy. But like our kids, they have so much to share an offer. And sometimes the ideas don't come to them, and that's okay. But every once in a while, oh man, they have awesome feedback.

00:42:14 Whitney La Rocca
But when we open our our classrooms to their feedback into these conversations, we're showing them that we trust them, right? And we're opening the doors. And and with that comes higher levels of engagement as well. And the best way to learn they have to be engaged first before they can really learn and retain anything. So when we have the trust of our students in that way, and they're, they feel open enough to share some of their thinking around this. We just invite more engagement.

00:42:40 Molly Rauh
Absolutely. Jessica, do you have questions to get us back on track? Because I have definitely derailed us a little bit.

00:42:47 Jessica Rickert
No, no questions. I think this has been great. And I just think that Patterns of Power resource is what teachers need, because I think teachers are always, have always been overwhelmed. And so it's nice for somebody else to do like the legwork of the structure. And like you said, then go off and do it. But it's nice to have something that's not a script, but it's here's where you can start, and then take off from there. So I think, and that's like, I'm excited for Molly too, because I think sometimes High School doesn't have of the resources like that. So I think that's a great resource. And I love that it's a resource, not a script, not a program, because we still want teachers to think too. And like you said, use your own books, your favorite books, because that's authentic. I mean, if you're just grabbing a book that the resource told you, it's like God, this is the worst book ever, you know, then then then it loses its authenticity. So I love that. And I love that you ground everything and what's best for students and how students learn and how we learn. I mean, that's how we read and write and learn about different things as well.

00:43:57 Whitney La Rocca
Well and I do want to say, with this Patterns of Power for high school, the co-author on that is Holly Durham. So she is, she's down here in Texas as well. She is a high school coordinator, language arts coordinator at high school level. So she really knows her stuff when it comes to high school. And to be honest, I get kind of get a little intimidated talking to her, because here I have goodbye little primary world, and that she's like using these words, I don't even know what they mean. So she definitely knows her stuff. But she Travis and Jeff co-wrote that one. So it's exciting that our family also said, continues to grow as we add more resources. And when we're thinking about this resource, it is a resource, right? So it's not a program, it's not a professional books. So it really can be used with any model that you're using, whether you are using balanced literacy and reading and writing workshop, or you are using a program this really, because it's a process, it really can feed into anything, any kind of model that you're using for a teaching writing. You can replace those worksheets with this process very easily. I have a several districts that I am working with that we are, we are doing that. So it is it is doable, and the teachers are excited because it's so much more engaging than those worksheets.

00:45:20 Molly Rauh
And I just want to emphasize, you know, I think processes are so empowering to both teachers and our students. When we learn processes, you know, they give us, kind of a strategy that we can apply regularly. And when we teach our students processes, they now have a tool that they can apply to different problems, that they run into themselves. And so I love teaching processes, and I love that you guys have created some awesome resources with Patterns of power and Patterns of Wonder. And, you know, the whole collection of resources for so many people at every different level. So I hope teachers listening, you know, budget a little money aside and grab themselves a great resource.

00:46:04 Whitney La Rocca
Resource. Yes, thank you. Well, I will say too with the process, they you actually go through the entire writing process in a very short, non-threatening way with this Patterns of Power process too, you know, you're immersed in this literature, you're immersed in skill. You turn around and do some brainstorming before drafting something together, you turn around and draft it again on your own. You celebrate that. And often in that celebration, there's revision that's done to that right there. You realize, oh, I want to add this, and you doing some revision that apply often goes into a lot of revision into the writing that you're doing during your writing block of time and ending with the editing conversation moves over to editing. So you're really taking it through the writing process, but it's in such a short digestible chunk that it's very non-threatening to students, again, that that allows them to feel good and confident about that work they're doing before going into these long essays, right, or whatever it is that they're writing.

00:47:06 Molly Rauh
Well. And I love that you. You emphasized that it is a short process, because I think sometimes teachers go oh, writing is such a process. It's so hard to get, and it feels it feels so natural and engaging and short and sweet. And, you know, it's kind of a very snappy kind of thing to work through these these processes. And when you said earlier that you were a little intimidated by, you know, some of the high school stuff in the vocabulary, let me just tell you, like the some of the best instructional practices that I have as a teacher I learned from lower elementary presenters that I've gone to see, like, truly some of the best. And, you know, you talk again about some of those processes. Linda Hoyt is where...

00:47:55 Whitney La Rocca
I love Linda Hoyt.

00:47:55 Molly Rauh
Yeah, I saw her early in my career at a CCIRA conference, and she she blew my mind, because it was very much like what you talked about, where it was like, okay, let's observe this sentence. Let's mimic it a little bit. And we did so much writing. So, you know, in such a short sweet amount of time. And I was like, I can. I was teaching Middle School at the time. And I was like, I can totally take this back to my kids and man. I had such fun experiences using the strategies. And I still like it's still in my classroom today. And, you know, if you've ever looked at her Non-fiction Writing, everything is like three steps. There's nothing more than three steps. And I feel like the work that you guys have done is very similar in that it really is short and sweet. And, you know, empowering, because it's so easy to just take and use. I think that's something teachers really love and want to just be able to like, go into something and be like, okay, I can apply this like I can use this tomorrow because it's like it makes that much sense.

00:48:58 Whitney La Rocca
And the students do that to. They're like, oh, I can do this one sentence. I can do that, right? I can do that. It's that confidence piece. So.

00:49:08 Molly Rauh
Alright. So my final question, okay, it that I pretty much throw at everyone is about educational Heroes.So who are some of you? I know it's a hard one - who are some of yours. Maybe, you know, just a couple. People that have really impacted you in awesome ways as an educator.

00:49:29 Whitney La Rocca
Okay. So of course, Jeff. You know, I've talked about him this whole time. So I'm going to start with him, but I'm not going to say a lot because I've done that this entire webinar. I will say Lucy Calkins has completely changed my view on teaching writing. And she actually came into my writing education as an early, I was an early teacher at the time. I had been only teaching a couple years when I was introduced to her work, and I actually got to go to New York for an Institute. And that Institute I walked away, saying, this is what I need to be doing. This makes sense and just she is just such an. And I know she's keynoting at your [Conference]. I'm so excited, but she just is such a learner herself to that. She's constantly revising her thinking, and she's constantly researching and constantly getting out there into classrooms and schools and trying to see what is going on right here and now, but still grounded in what's best for kids and that engagement piece and keeping it authentic. What authentic reading and writing really is. So one of my very first books, professional books that I read front to back, like cover to cover and was Art of Teaching Writing and I, it's highlighted like crazy. It's still on my shelf now. But just reading that and then listening to her. And now, even when I teach, people, will say, you sound just like Lucy. And I'm like, well, she was like, she was my person that's who - I remember being at the institute on my birthday and I she was I was in her small group session. And and she had us writing, of course, she always has us writing, and she was going around and conferring. And she came up next to me. And she said, I want to talk to you about your writing -scoot over. This is so Lucy: just scoot over. I'll share your chair with you, and I was like, so I got to like touch butts with Lucy on my birthday. I mean how cool is that.One of my favorite memory. But anyway, I just I could listen to her all day. I she's just she just has so much to say, and she's so genuine in everything that she does and everything that she says. And she's thoughtful in how she speaks, and she speaks how she writes, right? So it definitely she's one of my heroes for sure. I also, you know, I could go on and on, but I am going to I know that we're short on time. So definitely Jeff. Definitely Lucy, but also my mom, my, like I said, she is a former teacher, former coach. Her name is Amy Daley, and I actually dedicated Patterns of Wonder to her. She was, as I was growing up, she she was a preschool director, and then she moved into being a kindergarten teacher. And then eventually a coach, and I just had learned, growing - as a child I learned so much from her. She, I remember the writing that we did together just as a child in the young authors, competitions, she was there to help me, and she never told me what to do. She constantly conferred with me, right? And made me think through everything that I was doing. And then I remember when I first started teaching, I learned so much from her. Just and that way, she's actually the one that got me thinking about Lucy Caulkins. She's the one that introduced me to that whole brilliance in my life, in my world. And and and we just every time that we talk, we still talk shop constantly. We just have so many of the same philosophies and views and feed off one another, even though she's fully retired now, but she's definitely an educational hero for me as well, and that there's so many more, but I'm just going to limit it to those three for now.

00:53:16 Jessica Rickert
It is so hard to limit, because we have you know, but I know that Molly and I are both envious of both of your experiences with Jeff and Lucy. That's pretty awesome. But I love that your mom has paved the way for you as well. That's pretty special. And I gotta tell you, I never thought I'd be excited about grammar instruction. And I am!

00:53:37 Whitney La Rocca
Me neither. I never thought I would either and and Jeff even says he never in a million years dreamed he would write a book on grammar, you know. And then like it becomes this empire, you know, later in his life so.

00:53:50 Jessica Rickert
Well, and it's so needed, because it's not something that it's kind of the leftover thing that we don't really talk about. I mean, we talked about writing instruction, but grammars always an aside, but it's so important, and it does need to be integrated. So I love what you guys have done.

00:54:06 Whitney La Rocca
And when it is taught, it's so often taught in isolation and just doesn't make sense right, or it's, or it's a focus on correcting, rather than the the correctness that's already there. And so I'm glad that we have a resource that can support teachers to keep it authentic and also continued their practice of teaching writing in the genres as well.

00:54:29 Jessica Rickert
Awesome. Well, we look forward to seeing you at CCIRA and Molly have something to say before we wrap up.

00:54:37 Molly Rauh
No, that's okay. I, you know me, I could talk all night.

00:54:41 Jessica Rickert
You got Molly jazzed too. You got a high school teacher jazzed about grammar instruction.

00:54:47 Whitney La Rocca
Well, that tends to be, usually High School teachers are very jazzed about grammar instruction.

00:54:51 Molly Rauh
I was actually, okay, I'm gonna say what I was going to say. I was actually thinking, like, there's so many teachers that are passionate about a lot of things writing-wise. And grammar is not one of them. They don't feel as comfortable with that space. And so you guys have really empowered them with something that allows them to feel comfortable tackling grammar.

00:55:13 Whitney La Rocca
It's okay to not know everything it's that's okay. That's okay. We support you in that. So yeah, it's great.

00:55:22 Jessica Rickert
Well, we're very excited. And for all of our listeners, if you haven't signed up for Whitney's session, there's still time to get in, or you can change your session to go and see Whitney, because she will have an awesome couple of sessions. And we're so excited to see you in person.

00:55:40 Whitney La Rocca
Thank you. And one of my sessions is following Lucy. So if I'm not there, when you first get there attendees, it's because I'm talking to Lucy, I'll be there soon. Now I'm just teasing, I'm gonna probably have to sneak out of Lucy early to get over to my session, be ready for everyone to come in. However, I'm following her. So I feel like woo look at me. I follow Lucy. I'm honored to come to CCIRA. I have heard so many good things about this conference for years now. So the fact that I am actually get to come and present at it. I'm just incredibly honored, and I can't wait to get to Denver, even though it'll be cold. I can't wait to get there so.

00:56:18 Jessica Rickert
Great. Well, thank you so much for taking time to talk to us tonight. Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. I've enjoyed it.

00:56:25 Molly Rauh
Thank you Whitney. Thanks for listening to CCIRA Literacy Conversations podcast. To find out more about CCIRA, go to CCIRA.org. On CCIRA.org, you can join as a member, or find great resources like our professional development blog, which posts every Tuesday and has variety of guest writers on a awesome selection of topics. CCCIRA is a professional organization of educators and community members dedicated to the promotion and advancement of literacy. We also have a Twitter account @ColoradoReading. You can find us on Instagram at CCIRA_ColoradoReading. Or you can find us on Facebook, where we also have a members only group that we're trying to build. And our Facebook account is CCIRA Colorado Reading. We'd love to hear more from you. And again, if you're looking for new content, please send any questions or things you'd be interested in seeing from CCIRA to CCIRAVideo@gmailcom. Thanks for listening and have a great week.