Citizens assemble: participatory approaches for climate action

Local Zero

After catching up on professional and personal news, Matt, Becky and Fraser welcome Rachel Coxcoon to the pod. Rachel, a former councillor and founder/director of Climate Guide, and is currently doing a PHD at Lancaster University.

In this episode, we talk about the role of deliberative democracy such as climate assemblies, and how we can use these effectively to achieve Net Zero.

AUDIO TRANSCRIPTION

[music flourish]

Becky: Hello and welcome to Local Zero with Becky, Matt and Fraser.

Becky: Joining us today is Rachel Coxcoon. Rachel spent many years working at the Centre for Sustainable Energy, leading their work around local and community empowerment. She's a former councillor, Director of Climate Guide, and if that wasn't enough, is now doing a PhD at Lancaster University, exploring how socioeconomic differences and political outlooks influence how people engage with the Net Zero transition.

Fraser: In this episode, we'll be chatting about the role of deliberative democracies such as citizens assemblies in climate policymaking and how to use these effectively as a core part of the Net Zero transition.

Matt: Really looking forward to this one. But before we get stuck into the episode, a plea from us to review Local Zero five stars, of course, wherever you listen to your pods and please do get in touch with us. If there's anything you'd like us to discuss, you can do that via email [e-mail] or Twitter at Local Zero pod.

Matt: We really do love hearing from you all.

Fraser: Yes, and if you enjoy Local Zero, the number one way you can help us is by recommending us to friends and colleagues. So if you could take two seconds to send the pod on to others, we would really, really appreciate it.

Becky: And you can also find further reading, episode transcripts, and the entire back catalogue of Local Zero on our website, localzeropod.Com.

Matt: So we've been asking many of you to get in touch with examples of how Local Zero has informed your work and it's been very heartening to hear the responses. So thank you to all of those who've taken the time. Now we had an email from Isaac Beaver who was recently on the pod about how Local Zero has influenced climate action scorecards in Canada, Isaac said, I thought I would let you know that a Canadian organization called the climate reality project, listen to your original podcast with Hannah and found out about our project.

Matt: They got in contact with us last year, and there is now a scorecards based project in Canada, with the results that are going to launch in June. Hope that's helpful for your funding impact as well as a nice story for a Monday afternoon. Well, Isaac, it was indeed a nice story and it's really great to hear that we're shifting the dial elsewhere.

Matt: Maybe we'll try to organize a chat with them, add that to the website and on the show notes.

Becky: Very, very exciting. That's cool. Like just shows that influence around the world. Absolutely

Matt: amazing. It was. And. A little closer to home. We also had a chat with Alistair McPherson, who's CEO of Plymouth Energy Community.

Matt: So a community owned and led charity that's looking to essentially deliver zero carbon houses and also community owned renewables. Uh, Alistair organize a quick chat with me, 20, 30 minutes. Basically just saying this pod has really helped to inform his thinking, his colleagues thinking about the next steps their organization is going to take.

Matt: So Alistair, thank you for taking the time. It's really, really appreciated.

Fraser: We're everywhere. We're everywhere.

Becky: Ultimately, this is the goal, right? Because so much of the, the knowledge that folk have that work in this space, I feel like stays in bubbles, not even just kind of the academic sector or, you know, whatever sector you're working, but even more micro bubbles than that.

Becky: And I just think that having the opportunity to share insights and learnings and knowledge more widely is, I mean, it's the heart of why we're doing all of this. So yeah, really warms my, really warms my spirit. And please, please, if you've got more stories like that, we'd love to hear them.

Matt: We're not just screaming into the void.

Matt: Yeah,

Fraser: it really, it really, I think it's just nice to hear that someone out there is listening. Sometimes we have these conversations and we've, we almost, we almost forget that there's an audience for this. So it's always nice to, it is to hear from, to hear from all of you. So absolutely get in touch.

Matt: Yes, absolutely.

Matt: We're, we're, I mean, we're all about positivity here and good news stories and never, never talk about the other side. So, so here's another good news story. Fraser, you have just been, not just nominated, you've now been ratified. You have been awarded fellowship from the Royal Scottish Geographical Society.

Matt: So that is, acknowledgement, I think, of the sterling work that you've been doing in this space. So congratulations and insert round of applause here, please.

Fraser: Thank you very much, Matt. Yeah, no, it's a, it's a lovely, lovely thing. So it's a, an honorary fellowship from what I think if anyone's not familiar with Royal Scottish Geographic Society, they're a wonderful, wonderful organization and very much at the forefront of, of thinking of, of policy influence and advocacy of working with communities on, on climate and sort of broader Net Zero issues in Scotland.

Fraser: An organization that do tireless work with really, really great members. Other honorary fellows include, for instance, Ban Ki moon. I don't know if you recall the name, but some really, really cool people are part of this network. So it's nice to be recognizing that.

Fraser: And again, just another, um, Another example of it's nice to know that the work that you're doing and the things that you show incessantly about aren't just completely hurled into the void.

Matt: I'm definitely jealous. Um, as I did a geography degree. So this is the, the Nirvana. This is the promised land. So, um, Fraser, I, I bow to you and your prowess, you've, you've scaled, scaled the summit.

Matt: Well done.

Fraser: Thank you.

Becky: So in future episodes, can we expect to see. Another kind of certificate award behind you alongside your PhD.

Fraser: Well, I will insist on, I will insist on being called, you know, your supreme excellency, just something to that effect. Yeah. It's not quite a knighthood. I actually think this is better to be honest, but

Matt: yes, I completely agree.

Matt: Um, now as as we sit here, um, we are probably by the time this goes out, I think the manifestos for the forthcoming election will start to emerge. But as we sit here, we are being bombarded with news, uh, about various parties, green policy credentials, what will be in these manifestos, what won't be. And one of the will they, won't they stories has been Labour's infamous 28 billion pound commitment to green energy amongst other things.

Matt: As we sit here, it's looking like it's going to get pulled / water down and I don't know. I just wanted to pause and reflect here. So we're, I think it's not a massive stretch to say this is a monumental election. It's a monumental year for elections. Generally, it's not just the UK that's doing this, but the US and many, many other countries, but green, the green agenda will very much beyond that.

Matt: And one of the, the kind of the context, around this is about looking to be economically and fiscally sensible, a safe pair of hands. And one of the first things that could be cut is green. So wanted your quick kind of back of the fag packet response on that.

Fraser: I so I find this incredibly frustrating and not just the flip flopping around on the 28 billion, I don't think that's quite as important as the commitment to investment full stop.

Fraser: And what I find frustrating is the idea that they want to seem economically sensible. So they're going to curb sort of pull back on any commitments to investment. When you see the, the catastrophe, the absolute disaster that's been caused by under investment over the last 14 years. There's nothing left to cut.

Fraser: There's nowhere else that money can come from. So this, this, this narrative that to show that you're economically sensible means that you have to show that you're willing to make tough decisions and that you're willing to sort of enact misery and in a lot of law ways and not spend anything in the face of an existential climate crisis, of a cost of living crisis, of decline in living standards, and demonstrable underinvestment compared to the rest of, of the OECD, compared to the rest of sort of wealthy or more developed nations, I think is an absolute nonsense.

Fraser: I also think against that background, sorry, I will give way, but against that, the backdrop of the state of the country just now, the idea that people are at all interested in fiscal rules that anyone's going to go and vote based on your arbitrary fiscal rules versus the the opportunity to invest and make things better.

Fraser: I think this is the point where you challenge the narrative. You don't backtrack to say we're not going to spend anything because people will think we're sensible. I think people have broadly had enough of not spending and sensible fiscal rules. Now's the time to get behind investment and to really stand on it because at some point or other you're going to have to, lest we completely miss it.

Fraser: everything that we have to do on climate, economy, and society in general. Thank you very much. I'll see you next week.

Matt: So, so, so not a fan then Fraser. It, it's short, not happy. Becky, any, any immediate response?

Becky: Well, I will, I will layer onto the fact that I think Fraser's right about where a lot of people are kind of coming to, uh, coming to this debate from and time and again, and not just at the kind of at this sort of political level, but even within programs run by the energy industry itself.

Becky: There's this assumption that we are completely motivated by money and the economic argument yet. All the social science research out there from, you know, not just in the energy domain, but in so many different domains shows us that really, that is not the most, that is not the strongest way in which people make decisions.

Becky: And Fraser's absolutely right. Like aligning with deeper, um, and more intrinsic core values is absolutely the way to win over people and votes. So, you know, I think you've, I think you're onto a point there. I think for me, the bigger issue is it's just short term thinking, isn't it? Because the reality is, is that we need to invest in this in order to avoid a lot of the, um, detrimental impacts.

Becky: And more spending down the line. So it feels, you know, it's just another, another way in which spend less now spend more in the future. We're loading and loading this on to future generations and not future generations, you know, that many away, probably, probably later in our own lives and our kids lives.

Becky: And it just, yeah, it feels very short term to me.

Matt: My, okay, so I'm going to, I'm going to play devil's advocate and come at this about maybe some of the, um, ways in which I understand what they're doing before then maybe disagreeing with it. I understand moving, stepping away from a big number, uh, which they can be turned against them and used, um, you know, during the election as an example, which some people would frame of, of labor, you know, increasing tax and increasing spend.

Matt: So a lot of people are happy with increased spend as long as it doesn't result in increased tax. And given the cost of living crisis for some, you know, not all let's remember that there's some people doing. Plenty well out of the current situation, but I can understand the sensitivity sensitivities and that there's this talk Pat McFadden and others bomb proofing the manifesto, but this is the big, but if, if this is one of their five key missions, it's a massive plinth for economic stimulus for social welfare and justice.

Matt: And also, lest we forget dealing with these problems before they get bigger and require more effort and cost to, to resolve if they're going to step back on this. It does raise a question on what they're for. So I hope, I hope they're binning the number, but not the commitment. And we shall see.

Becky: We shall see.

Becky: Let's lighten up a little bit. That was quite, quite heavy. I want to talk about sheep in wells, in homes.

Matt: Amazing. I'm in. What about them?

Becky: Um, so maybe not as controversial as you might think, but there's a new project.

Matt: it's definitely a scene change, isn't it?

Becky: Yep. From, from labor to Welsh sheep. This is a project in North Wales where they're looking to, you know, Use traditional products like wool, like sheep's wool to help make homes more energy efficient for less.

Becky: And so it's really looking at how can we take more traditional materials and use them in new ways to improve the housing stock and look at. What, uh, what performance of that could be. And so this is really this, this big eco project trying to lead a major decarbonization program, working alongside communities and businesses over the next 10 years, but using those, uh, those things that we have right there on the doorstep.

Becky: To, to see how we can do better with them.

Matt: Plenty on the doorstep of Wales. That's great. No, I mean, I'm, I love this idea about building with, with more organic, natural materials, many of which that we can, we can capture and harness on our doorstep. I mean, I'm amazed by what you can do with, with wool. So I would love to see this.

Matt: And one of the places I actually really want to visit is the center for alternative technologies in Wales, where I think these types of technologies are being profiled. So that's, that's another place for me to drag my children along to next time we're in Wales and that might be Easter time kids. So,

Becky: Oh, your kids are getting quite the education, aren't they?

Becky: It's absolutely awesome.

Matt: Very bored. Um, no, that, I really liked that. Okay. So. I think we need to bring our guest in because a lot of maybe the discussions that we've, we've been having now by this manifestos, what have you, it's, I think it's all about how we engage the public, how we inform the public, how do we bring them in as part of this?

Matt: So I think it's probably about time to bring them in.

Rachel: Hello, my name is Rachel Coxcoon and I'm a PhD researcher at Lancaster University in the climate citizens team.

Becky: Hi, Rachel. Thank you so much for joining us. I noticed that you introduced yourself as a PhD researcher, but actually you've got a really, you're not a.

Becky: perhaps, uh, traditional type of PhD researcher. You've got quite an extensive background working in, well, a huge diversity of spaces. So maybe just give us a little bit of an overview of, of, you know, what, what you've done before and how you got into this really exciting space and PhD program.

Yeah. Um, so yes, I don't fit the normal PhD student mold in that I am a great deal older than most of them.

And I got into the PhD really at the end point of, of thinking about engaging with communities and local government around the climate crisis. So I, my, my main background is that I worked for about 15 years for an organization called the Center for Sustainable Energy based in Bristol, where I set up and then led the local and community empowerment team, which was focused really on supporting communities around things, particularly like community owned energy renewables, you know, community wind farms and so on, as well as a lot of work around the planning system.

So neighborhood planning at that very local scale, as well as supporting local councils to write their planning frameworks around Net Zero. Um, and all that work with communities and local government, when I moved to the Cotswolds about 10 years ago. Kind of really um, open my eyes to the fact that the council there was doing very badly on climate change, um, for such a beautiful green area.

There was very little actually going on, um, and that encouraged me to run for election, principally about making sure that building was better around there. And so I managed to, to win, but was also part of a group who then took part to control of the council. So sort of more by accident than by design, I became cabinet member for climate change and forward planning at Cotswold District Council, which was, you know, fascinating and rewarding and frustrating, probably in equal measure, which I did for about four years.

Uh, and then I'd moved away from the area, but a lot of the work that that I'd done through all of that, through working with communities, through representing my own community, through the development of things like the future energy landscapes, um, consultation approach that I developed for the campaign for rural England at the campaign to protect rural England.

It was all that kind of, how do you help people make decisions that are very local? Because I've kind of been around in this game long enough to have seen what happens, like what happened under the last Labour government, where for very good reasons they were really promoting the rollout of renewables.

And that ultimately caused the backlash against, for example, onshore wind that we have, when we had lots of people feeling like Infrastructure had been imposed upon them. So doing all that kind of work with communities and say, where is that right scale to make these decisions geographically, spatially, and culturally, how do we help people come together to make decisions about energy planning particularly, ultimately led me to wanting to think.

Think more about it, uh, which then led me to applying for the PhD that I'm doing now.

Becky: So maybe you can just help before we get started, just a bit of clarity over some of the terminology that we might be using. You know, you talked about engaging people and supporting, I guess, more democratic decision making.

Becky: So we hear terms like that. We also hear things like climate assemblies, mini public citizen juries, you know, and, and there's probably a few more, maybe you could just set out some