#925: Rising From Rock Bottom

Dental A Team Podcast

In this powerful episode, Kiera is joined by John Jackson, executive director of Defy Ventures, Utah. John shares his history as a criminal, the time he spent incarcerated for his crimes, and how he found the power to change.

Kiera and John met through a Tony Robbins’ Business Mastery earlier this year, and Defy Ventures is one of the nonprofits the Dental A-Team is donating to through its Live to Give program this year.

About John: Correctional officials once labeled John “the worst of the worst.” As he served 18 years in prison, John rose through the ranks of his gang by honing his leadership skills. After four years in solitary confinement, John realized that building his criminal resume would only lead him to life—and death—in prison. He made the dangerous and unpopular decision to step away from criminal activity while incarcerated at Pelican Bay, a notorious supermax prison in California.

Since his release from prison in 2019, John served as the director of sales and fundraising at Hustle 2.0, helping to scale the organization from two prisons in California to 700+ jails and prisons in 47 states, serving 13,000+ incarcerated men, women, and youth. He co-authored 11 books. The curriculum provides holistic rehabilitation and healing for people in America’s most dangerous prisons, offering a pathway to college. John delivered a TEDx at Cornell University about ending the generation cycles of incarceration.

Today, John serves as the executive director of Defy Ventures, Utah, leveraging entrepreneurship to help incarcerated people transform their lives. He uses his story of courage and transformation to create hope for those who have been written off and forgotten by society.

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Transcript:

The Dental A Team (00:00.234)

Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera. if you don't know, Dental A Team has a portion of our company called Live to Give. And every single year, our company goes and looks for organizations or places that I believe in that I feel can give a greater impact in this world. We've done a Make-A-Wish for a child who had stomach cancer one year. We have done Stuff for Santa within our communities. We have done

scholarships for people. And every single year we did a coat drive with all of our clients and we were able to give so many coats to cold families. And this year I met an incredible man named John from Defy Ventures. And John was an incarcerated criminal for 17 years. He was at maximum security. He was in solitary confinement for four years and he was sent to Pelican Prison, which is the number one like federal prison in California where it literally is like a resume builder for prisoners, but that is like the top of the top.

He was in gangs and he has actually come out of prison and his five years since his release date. And he has a company called the Five Ventures where literally they help incarcerated criminals turn their skills that they've learned in prison into something good and to build businesses. And it's such an incredible company. It's probably not the one that I ever imagined that I'd be recommending or talking to you about, but.

I'm bringing John on the podcast. John is a dear friend. met him and I just was so inspired by him of who he is as a person. And then also if you want no affiliation with our company with them, but just a cause of Live To Give where we donated as well. But you are able to sponsor an incarcerated criminal if you want to be able to give them the entrepreneurship skills and you're able to give back to an organization that I believe is trying to stop generational crime. The US has actually more in cart.

our 5 % of the world's population and yet we have 25 % of the world's crime. And just watching how our world is going, if there are people like John who were incarcerated themselves and have been able to turn and become a force for good and to be able to do incredible things for this world, it might be something incredible for you. I am literally so excited to bring you guys today's guest. This is someone that I met a couple of months ago at Tony Robbins Business Mastery.

The Dental A Team (02:19.04)

little plug we did freaking win john so we are the winners will show you our trophies. Yeah, bring the trophies up. But john was actually the reason that we won and we were helping support his company which is defy ventures. But john has such an interesting story. And literally I had the most life changing experience talking to john and so I'm so excited to welcome john I there's like so much more I want to say about your intro but I'm let you tell your story more than me enjoying you. But welcome to the show john how are you today?

I'm doing awesome. I have a huge smile on my face because I'm really excited. First is good to see you and second to be on your podcast to get to share with you. Getting to share that win on stage at Tony Robbins was definitely a highlight of my life. So thank you for supporting us and all in pushing us to promote while we were there as well. And I think you're back to back. You're on the back to back winning team, I think, two years in a row now. We're technically three for three, John, but

our win this time was the first one I got the trophy for. So thanks for making the trophy happen. Like I won them all the times, but, and it's funny because my friend that I had first, which some of the podcast listeners may have heard Pierce, Pierce had said trophy and we took a picture and he's like, here, I'm just going to take it home and then I'm going to ship it to you. And I was like, okay, Pierce, that's great. Cause Pierce is like freaking seven feet tall. So of course when Tony brought out the trophies, he like grabbed one. I'm not quite as tall.

And so I was like, no problem, Piers. And then Piers did a freaking podcast with me a little while ago. And those of you who watched it, Piers has his trophy right behind us on the podcast. And I was like, I remember that trophy, Piers. John, like this was like, and this we're talking, that was 2019. So this was five years in the beginning. But John, okay, Defy Ventures, you guys, we're gonna go into prison talk. John, I need you to tell your story. I'm gonna let you tell it. I'm gonna ask you like a thousand questions.

I literally felt like I interviewed you before the win. didn't know we were going to win at business mastery. For those of who don't know business master is an event that Tony Robbins puts on and you go to this event. This is actually in 2019. I went there literally skyrocketed Dental A Team to where we are today. but I learned so much about business and what you're doing is you're at this conference. It's running from like, gosh, 10 AM until 2 AM in the morning. Like it's insane. And while you're there learning content, you're also supposed to be building a business within. It is like the most exhausting thing that you've ever done.

The Dental A Team (04:38.688)

And John's business was the one that we did this year of DeFi Ventures. And it was so cool. But John, tell your story because I'm not going to do you justice other than the fact that like this man came from one of the craziest prisons and I'm just beyond blown away of who you are as a person and the background story that you have. So John, tell us all like your little history, not little. It's like nuts. And now we're sitting here. You're a free man today on a podcast with me. Like literally the irony and the magic of your life is just inspiring to me.

Thank you. Thank you. I just reiterate, I really am so grateful that we got to share that experience and Business Mastery has been, it has been a force accelerator for me as well. And whether it's through fundraising or just growing the impact that I want to have. So I'm really grateful that I get to do that and get to be a part of that experience. But yes, I'd love to share a part of my story. And I just start from, you're to have some highs and some lows here, but I promise we'll get to the end of it and it's a happy ending.

but it started, like the most striking memories for me, start when I was 11 and it's, you know, from my mom kissing me, tucking me in a bed, kissing me good night and her going to work. she was a waitress at Denny's. worked the graveyard shift. So I get up the next morning and I'm on my way to school and on my way to school, I see my mom's car parked on the side of the road and I go look in and it was her murder scene. So that was.

I was 11 years old. I never knew who my father was. So after my mom was murdered, I went to live with my aunt. And my aunt was a drug dealer. She was an entrepreneur. And she was a really good entrepreneur. She just used her skills in the wrong way. But when I was 17 years old, I was in the car with her. And we both get pulled over. She's got drugs in the car. And I can remember the cop.

walking up and my aunt leaning over and telling me, if the cops find the drugs, tell them they're yours. She was already on probation. So her getting caught with drugs again was going to send her to prison. So I already lost my mom, right? I didn't have a father. I didn't want to lose my aunt too on top of that. So when the cops found the drugs, I lied and I said they were mine. And my aunt watched as I was handcuffed and put in back of a cop car. Now's my first time being arrested.

The Dental A Team (07:06.285)

got to jail, 17 years old slap on the wrist, right? If my first time being arrested, I get released about two weeks later, but something that my aunt did was she praised me. She's like, good job. This is what you do for your family and you protect your family. And looking back now, I know like it's the opposite. She's supposed to protect me. First. not, I'm not, I'm not bashing her for selling drugs or doing anything like that, but having me take the drug charge. was, that was something very different.

but I knew at that time, I'm all in like a criminal lifestyle. This is what I'm going to do. And before the end of that year, I'd committed four armed robberies and I've been convicted of seven families. at 17, I was sent to a maximum security prison in California. So that's, that's kind of like, that's another like pivotal moment in my life is going to prison at 17. Yeah. Okay. There's more that comes and John like sitting here, I remember, so I meet you.

Yeah, I had some like biases. You were we're at Tony Robbins, our mutual friend told us about you. And you just told me some things that Tony Robbins you're like curious like K cradle the grave. Like that's the prison lifestyle. So at 17, had you graduated high school? Or were you still a senior in high school? Or school? I dropped out of school. Seventh grade is the last grade I completed. Stop for real. You see your mom. You're like I'm out your aunt probably different lifestyle.

Okay, so 17, you're starting to do all these things. So how does this work? Tell me from 17 to basically like, how what happens next? You like you get involved? I'm guessing criminal lifestyle? Like, how did you decide to go from like, Johnny from the block? was like literally like going to school. Now you're like in full blown criminal, but I might you're gonna take care of your family have no father, have no mother like this is the family. So you're going to adapt to family life. What happens after you're sent to like, how long are you in prison?

And by the way, you guys, I did ask John of anything that, cause I would, I'm so nosy. I'm so curious about this. And when we were talking at Tony Robbins before we ended up winning, I thought it was actually really awesome. Cause I got to hear your entire story even more so. And then we go on stage and we win. And it even more of a magical moment of like, I didn't feel like we won the conference. I feel like we won your life and like to see you have a very different life than like the path that you were on is why I wanted you on the podcast. Because I remember when we were talking, John,

The Dental A Team (09:33.453)

like I had actually had a really rough summer. and I had had like some really hard times. And I remember looking at you and I'm like, John loves himself so much. And you have told me some stories and I'm like, if this man can learn to love himself, like you're such an example for all of us of like, you don't have to be on the path that you were set on. No matter what we've done in life, like we can still have these happy lives.

And I just wanted to bring you on for like hope for people, but also like to learn from your stamina and your grit. And then we are also talking about how the prison and the mob, you're like freaking brilliant at systems. Like the businesses they run are freaking genius, just a little bit on the wrong side. okay. 17. have a question real quick though. have a question. You said you had some biases. can you share, are you comfortable sharing what some of those were? Like what do you envision of a person who's formerly incarcerated or gang member or any of things? What pops up in your mind?

I mean, it's a great question, John. And like, it's slightly embarrassing, but I think it's real. You're a male, I'm a female. I'm told that you're coming here and you just came out of maximum prison. How long has it been? Like what? Two years? Five years. Year two, five years. But there's a question of like, has this man really changed? Or is he going to, and like, especially as a female, like I'm very cautious of who I spend time with. And at certain conferences, full transparency, I have had men.

approach me in ways that are just not appropriate. And I felt uncomfortable around men at even some of the conferences we go to, which I think is just a female's life. And I think a lot of female would probably feel that way. So when our mutual friend Casey told us that he's bringing you to this conference, John, I'm not gonna lie to you. I was like, I'm gonna have my like guard up of like, I'm sure he's a changed man. But at the same time, I also don't want to be dumb and naive, especially as a female and like you came from maximum prison security. And so

I know we can have these honest conversations. And then I met you and who you are as a person. And I was like, this guy deserves everything in the entire world. And that's actually freaking what Defy Adventures is about is like helping incarcerated criminals have a life that's real. like, John, like it is scary because some people like the world is manipulative. The world. want to say about that. me say it's embarrassing. I don't think I hope you don't feel that way because I think what I what I see in that is or what I hear from that. That's

The Dental A Team (11:51.501)

That's much of what society paints with it. They just take a brush and they just paint it movies and TV and politics and anything else. They're really good at othering and saying, this is just who everybody is, right? Every single one of them are this terrifying, scary human being. And that's just not the case. But we've been so conditioned to believe that. And then you also just to like...

just to affirm your experiences, that is true. As a female, you go to these conferences and men are, put you in uncomfortable situations and that's a nice way to put it. Just total sleazeballs, I guess, can be unprofessional and not nice. And you think, well, if that's a business person, if that's a CEO, if that's this person, what's this person coming out of prison gonna be like? I mean, it's not wrong. It's accurate.

And it's also scary. How do you know to trust them? Right? Because criminals are literally built upon lies. They're built upon conniving. mean, criminals are like the best salespeople you'll ever meet. And so it's like, how do you trust that this person's truly genuine and that they are changed and that they're not going to like rob me or rape me or steal from me or like find out where I live and send a gang after me. Like I think those are real things, but I also think, like you said, a lot of it's the media.

And I also think that that's why it's hard for incarcerated people when they come out to even have a chance in a shot at life, which is why I think it really is cradle to grave, like you said, because society just throws you right back into that. And like there's stories that you hear of people that are in their hometowns, they leave and they become these incredible people, they come back to the hometown and people put them right back into the shadows that they were in before they left. And they never amount to anything. And I actually feel like that's very similar for you, but like,

How do we trust in society of like, are you a good person? Like, are you good or are you not good? I wanna give you the benefit of the doubt, but I also don't want to like be burned and regret my decisions. I think there's ways to do that, right? I think if we imagine like who would wanna be known for the worst decisions they ever made, like if all of our stuff was ever laid bare, I doubt we would ever trust, there would be very little trust in this world if every decision that you had ever made, you, myself or anyone.

The Dental A Team (14:14.829)

every lie you ever told, everything you ever was just like, hey, before we start having a conversation, I just want you to read this extended list of all the bad choices I've made. And then let's see if you're to invest in me as a person or you can get to know me. People would probably kick us out. It wouldn't. But it's our judgment, right? And we can protect ourselves. We don't need to give people our addresses and invite them to our homes or anything like that. It's not.

But it does mean that like as an entrepreneur or people who can hire and who own companies, you can interview people. We have processes for that to check background checks and ways to check and see where people are at and see about their transformation and test them before we bring them closer into our fold. No, absolutely. I think it's brilliant. And that's honestly why I brought you on because I think sometimes the biggest critic is ourselves too. so yes, we can be judgmental of other people, but like you said,

I mean, we all have laundry lists that we wouldn't be proud of. I just think criminals are painted in such a bad light. And I mean, for good reason, right? Like there are things that are done that shouldn't be done. But I also think that like you said something so paramount when we were talking in Florida and you said like, because I remember I asked you point blank, was like, John, how can you love yourself with everything that's happened? And maybe you can answer that question for people because this hit me to my core. And I was like, we're gonna have the podcast once so can re listen to this over and over.

But two, think so many people feel this way. I mean, you've done some pretty heinous things in your life, and yet you still love who you are, and you're still one of the happiest people. The light and life that you exude is just contagious. So how did you come to that? How did you come to that realization of, yeah, I've done all these things, but I still love me as John, and I love who I am, and I'm proud of who I am? Yeah. So two things. can have remorse over the things that I've done. I have done.

bad things in my life that have hurt a lot of people and caused a lot of harm and destruction. And first it starts with ownership. But yes, I did those things. It doesn't matter that I was a kid, right? was a dangerous kid. So full radical ownership. But yes, I committed robberies, I hurt people, and I continued that pattern and that behavior while I was incarcerated. The second part is I wouldn't be who I am today had I not done those things. Had I not spent 18 years in prison, had I not done

The Dental A Team (16:38.347)

had I not lived that life, I wouldn't be able to use my experiences to serve other people, to help you, Kiera, see that, not all formerly incarcerated people are bad. Like we are, like, please don't paint us all with the same brush. So I love myself. I get to use my story. get to use my experiences to show other people, hey, you can make it to the other side of this. There is a way out. It won't be easy, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. And I get to show other people who have never experienced that world, look.

Not everyone is that way. If we give them a chance and we invest in people, can be great. Is that some word on the lines with my answer? Yeah, exactly. I also love like, John, I'm curious, Kay, so you're incarcerated at 17. Is that when you were sent in? How long was your sentence at 17? It was 16 years originally. 16 years originally. Did you get out?

And then back in, because you said you were 18 years in prison, how did this work out? Or did you like just get more time extended to you? I got more time added to my sentence. So when I was originally incarcerated, it was for a 16 year prison sentence. And from the start, when I got to prison, I think you can imagine, actually, so incarcerated 17, made it to prison at 18. And like, it was a consecutive sentence. But when I got there, I engaged in violence, I joined a gang, I did all the things that I shouldn't have been doing.

And that got time added onto my sentence, which was like getting, I four years of solitary confinement for my gang involvement. And it just kept piling up and piling up. But I didn't at the time, I don't have that long term, that foresight to see like, I'm 17, 18 years old. It's 17, 18 years from now, I'm still going to be in prison. That doesn't make any sense. That doesn't register for a 17 or 18 year old at the time.

So basically your life of crime was pretty much just a year of your life. Like if we like really boil it all down, I mean, and it was probably a pretty wild year of your life. And I think getting into the prison, it's like perfect. And then like you and I talked about games. I was getting in trouble. That's somewhat accurate. I got sent to prison because of what happened in that short time period. But I committed more crimes, although I was committing crimes all the way up until my last conviction was actually in 2014.

The Dental A Team (19:00.589)

where I felt the conviction. And that's while I was incarcerated. like, I hadn't changed. I was still doing the same things all the way up until 2017 is when I made a pretty radical change in my life. Interesting. Okay. Like I said, I brought John on here. I'm so curious because it's so fascinating to me. Like, I think people just assume that they're going to be how it is.

Like, so when you got put into prison, did you plan like, got it, I'm gonna be here for 18 years, I'm gonna get out and be back in here. Or like, what was the thought process of you're being incarcerated? You've sentenced, you had four years of solitary confinement, and you're still doing things like, is it just like life? that like the job? Is that like the status within the That's what you said right there, it's life. Like, it's like, you know what you signed up for. It's like what you signed up for, it's part, it's just part of the deal, right? Like going to solitary confinement.

Like, so basically when you go to prison and you join the gang, the expectation is like, well, blood in, blood out, you know, until the casket drops. And that is taken literally. It's like, you're in. There is no, there usually is no way out. It is until the casket drops that you die. You like you're born. And for many people, this is an inheritance. They're, you know, they're third or fourth generation gang members. And it's like, I'm going to die in prison one day. That is just, this is what it is. like, Hey, like.

You know what you signed up for. Right. Like that's the compelling feature. This is where I'm at. There's really nothing I can do to change it. So let's have like the best ride. And also like within gangs, like you're being praised for doing these things. So you're getting the reinforcement. You're getting the kudos. Like your aunt told you after you come out for being drugs, like that's what you do for your family. it's like, and I mean, we're raised, we're raised by society. We're raised by what people teach us. And so I'm curious. Okay. So now you're there for your school.

Tell me about solitary confinement. Like, is that awful? I just need to know. Like, how is It is awful. It's awful practice that we use in the United States and we use it on children as young as 13, 14 years old. And it's been deemed by, it's been deemed human torture to put someone in an eight by 12 concrete cell and like no human contact. It's hard to explain. It's hard for people to imagine. They think that,

The Dental A Team (21:22.039)

TVs or something will show you that, it's 23 hours a day. That's not true. It's 24 hours a day. And even when you go out to recreational yard outdoor activities, it's just another cell outside of your cell. It's not like a real yard. You don't really go out to see the sun or the grass. It's another concrete cell, but it's just a little bit bigger. that's also...

like the grit and the determination and resilience that like, it becomes a challenge for most people who are back there. It's like, well, you're not going to freaking break knees. Like, so like we used to learn, we learned it's the cell faces. If you just imagine that like right now you're in a cell, there's a wall, there's a small window that faces a wall, maybe like four or five feet away. And that's what you look at for years. And that's really all you can see.

but there are seven other people in a unit with you that all face the wall. So you can talk to people. We learned to play chess. We play chess by memory. Like we have chess boards and we can play by memory, playing chess with each other. We play games and you find ways to, reading, working out, cleaning. It's where you, I really learned a lot of the discipline that I have today was learned in prison, in solitary confinement.

reading, writing book reports, working out every day, getting up on time, having a routine and discipline. I learned all of that in prison through the gang. you feel like, okay, tell me more about this. Do you feel like that routine and all the things you learned from that, like you just said, there was the discipline, getting up, like you had to basically probably build your own routine. I'm guessing the prison, like you're in confinement. No, we have one built for us. So the gang has one built for you. You get up, you have a roll call in the morning. It's like, hey everybody, good morning, time to get up.

And you have a workout, I clean my cell, I get a towel every day, a little shampoo, clean my cell down, make sure my cell is really clean, practice good hygiene, shower, brush my bird bath in there. You have a sink with water, so you just bird bath in your cell and read, study, workout. These things are mandatory every day. These aren't options. Okay. So then it like, which is probably good, it instills it.

The Dental A Team (23:38.173)

a routine for you, which I think is really paramount in life. like John, you said, like, where did your shift happen? Were you in solitary confinement? Or when you're in confinement? Are you just planning your next crime? Because like within the prison, that's where crimes a lot of times happen. You and I were talking like, I was like, the mafia and prison, like if it could be used for good, honestly, the criminal mind if it can be used for good is beyond brilliant.

they have SOPs, they have a pecking order, like they've got an org chart, like you and I were talking like, yep, you get a handbook when you show up to the gang, like it's wild to me how they run it. They they're profitable. They know their margins. They know what they need to do. They send people out there. They praise them for work well done. And I'm like, if we can just take that and apply it to business, like it's absolutely brilliant. It's just unfortunately done in a way that's not like great outcomes. So how did you change? Like, was it in solitary confinement? Was it like you said you had a radical shift in 2017?

you're still committing crimes from within prison. Like how did you change John? Because so many people I think would argue like you don't really change. But I remember I attended, I'm very fascinated by addictions. I'm fascinated by the way the mind works. And I actually went to this addiction course for a while and they said you don't change until you're like rock bottom. Like everybody will hit a rock bottom and it's oftentimes not for family. It's not for life. Like, but everybody has a rock bottom that you hit. And when you hit it, you actually change. like,

A lot of people don't even get there. So how did you change? Do you agree with that? Do you disagree with that? I do disagree with that. Somebody has to hit a rock bottom. There's a quote by a homo-incredible guy named Chris Wilson. says, rock bottom isn't a place, it's a state of mind. Interesting. Like you can't go find this place anywhere. But it's in me. It's a state of mind. And it's a decision that I don't want to be in this place anymore. But there's also a really good book that I encourage people to read. called The Stages of Change.

in the trans theoretical model is how change actually happens. And there's different stages of it. There's like, I won't go through the whole thing, but there's like, I'm to, I'm blanking on it right now, but there's like, I'm not, there is no problem. I'm not the problem. And actually you're the problem. That's like the first stage of change. And the next one is like, you have awareness, like, there's a problem, but I'm not willing to do anything about it. I like what's happening right now.

The Dental A Team (25:56.749)

So there's these different stages of change. I subscribe more to that model that people will make. We make changes in our life in stages. And for me, had started making, I made a radical shift, but that shift didn't happen overnight. But there was like that spark for me. And it was right after, was when I got sent to Pelican Bay State Prison. And after I out of solitary confinement, I was supposed to be going home.

but it was, it was the day before my birthday, was supposed to be going home. And instead of going home, I was starting another four year consecutive sentence for a crime I committed. And that was the day when I decided I was like, all right, something has to change, in my life. But also like I've been doing, I've been living this life for 15 years. I don't know what else to do. But what did happen was I sat, I stayed back from yard, which is in prison.

You typically don't do that. Yard is mandatory. Just in case a riot or something kicks off, we need everybody on the yard. But I stayed in and that was the first time that I remember ever crying in prison for 15 years. I'd never cried. I lost my uncle, I lost my brother, lost so many people throughout my, and never cried. But I cried that day and that was the first time that I remember really wanting to go home. I was like, this is it. If I don't make a change in my life, I'm gonna die in here. And I believe that I...

I had belief that I was meant for more than dying in prison. And that was the big shift for me was I just believe me that I was meant for more than in prison. Insane. And I think it's so incredible. like, okay, so we talk about it it sounds very fairy tale, right? Like we have this moment where we're meant for more, which John, I'm so glad you said that because I think so many other people have that. And that's why I wanted you on the podcast. This is I love talking to you. Because I'm like, gosh, if John can do all these things and realize he's meant for more.

Like so many other people were so hard on ourselves and like know we're all meant for more. So tell me like, how did you process it? Also being in a gang. I remember when I met you, I was like, I don't even know how you're out in your life because like leaving a gang is usually death. Like there's no way and you're in a very prominent gang. Like how did you, how do you change? How do you get out from a gang where you're like usually killed if you leave a gang? That's why people don't love gangs.

The Dental A Team (28:17.805)

But they're so prompt, like they're good businesses, they're good recruiters, like and young boys and like, it's all the things that young, it's all the things that boys and like men want war money, like it's all, it's all there. It's all there. meets the needs, it meets those needs. do a good job. Those needs. We were talking and you're like, they're great at recruiting. Like they literally list off everything you want. They recruit you when you're young and you're not making like intelligent decisions and then you're in it for life. So

You go through this moment where you realize you're meant for more. How do you change? how do you change? How do you get out of a gang? Because I think so many people, you were facing probably one of the biggest uphill battles of any person I have ever met, John. Like, I'm probably gonna write a book about you. Like, I've never written a book, but gosh, like your story is just so fascinating to me because I think so many people would just feel like there's no hope and yet you found hope when there was no hope. Like, I would say that most people would be able to find. So walk me through, how do you transform into the man you are today?

So it was more action than it was anything else. was like, to me, it was coming out and letting my homeboys know. First, giving up positions that I had in prison. I gave up, I was an entrepreneur in prison. I used to run every single business you could imagine. I ran gambling pools, I sold alcohol, I sold drugs, I sold cell phones. I created markets where there wasn't one. That was how I all my money in prison. And I stopped doing that. That was- is also so wild. Can we just pause there? I remember I was talking and it's like-

How do you even do this? And you're like, well, you get to know people. It's like freaking sales in prison. You get to know all the guards. You notice they're having a bad day. You get them to bring this up in. Like it is wild. And I remember we were talking, there was someone else in the group with us and they're like, well, all this happens in prison. I'm like, yeah, I even know this. Like they're freaking run businesses within the prison. And it is like multimillion billion. Like it is a very thriving business. They're very large. They're very scalable businesses. And like I was small time. I made good money, but I, I,

For example, I would run gambling pools. It was on football, baseball, basketball. I even ran gambling pools on the Oscars and what's that? I forgot the name of show, but the Bachelor. I used to run gambling pools in the Bachelor. They would pick who's gonna win and all I would do is take a cut of the money. And I was just a facilitator for people to be able to gamble. But when I would get to a new facility or a new yard, I would undercut whoever was already running, whoever was running these pools.

The Dental A Team (30:43.917)

I would just undercut them and I would over deliver. They're charging $2 for a ticket. I charge $1 for a ticket. They take 15%. I take 10%. And I put them out of business and then I come back and hire them. And I hire them as like a kind of like a franchise. It's like, okay, now you're gonna do it for me in your building and I'm gonna give you 2 % of the cut. All you gotta do is pass out the football tickets and collect the money and give it to me and I'm gonna pay you. Okay, but how do you do that? Now I get killed in prison. Like that's not a joke.

Like I feel like you come in, there's a top dog and you take them down. They usually take you out. is it just because you- There's rules. That's where the rules come in. There's so many rules. Yeah. There's like, don't just get to go out and fight people whenever you want. You don't just get to go out and assault people whenever you want. Like it doesn't work. Like it does not. That's movies. And also that's also California. California is very organized, very structured. So it's like, Hey, you just got put out of business. Like too bad for you. Like nobody's gonna like-

They can get upset whatever they want, like that's not going to, that's violence is violence is always 99.9 % of the time is always predetermined. It's not random. Even when it's against an officer, it is not random. There is a high likelihood that that officer came in. I'm not justifying why that happens. not saying there's any reason why anyone should ever be assaulted. but when you're living in that life, there are

in that criminal mindset, there are justifications. And I've seen officers come in and take someone's family photos and throw them in the toilet and tear them up. And it's like, well, you just destroyed something that meant really a lot to that person. And they believe that their only way of justifying that, rectifying that is by going out and assaulting them. So it doesn't happen. No one wakes up one morning and be like, I feel like going out and stabbing someone. That doesn't happen.

Because it's a business. It's a plan like and as gross as that is you and I were talking about this and I'm like, I'm fascinated by business and I'm fascinated by criminal minds. Because like, it is a business and it is a livelihood. It's a lifestyle. Like this is how you get like all of us do things for money for our lives. And if that's all you've ever been taught, it's very hard to know different case. So you're the entrepreneur in there, you're undercutting all the other businesses. Like how do you change and also how do you even tell the gang that you're not going to be a part of it? That's like so

The Dental A Team (33:03.957)

a foreign, you must be really good at sales or something, John, because I feel like, like that's just not heard of. So it's a couple of things. So first, like some of the, the, some of my older own boys who are in prison, who are internet men in prison for a very long time and have a lot of influence, they were my mentors. They, and with proximity is power, right? So like I was around people who have a lot of power and, they believed in me.

And eventually, I let people know, like, hey, I'm not doing that anymore. And it was right around that time that Defy Ventures came to Pelican Bay as well, which is an entrepreneurship program. And it really came in at just the right time because I didn't know what to supplement. There's a huge gap in my life, and I don't know what else to put, but then Defy came and was like, okay, well, here's how you can start to use these skills in a positive way. And that was really what helped to self-solidify my change was I was able to help guys. I graduated from the program.

I became a facilitator and a leader within the program. And now guys, instead of coming to me for alcohol and phones and everything else, they're coming to me for resume feedback, business ideation feedback. They're coming to me for positive things and how can they get involved in programs? So it's like I was taking myself out of the negative conversations around the gang and taking myself out of anything that had to do with the gang and putting myself into positive, into more positive things. And people saw that.

And yeah, people called me all kinds of names when I first started making changes in my life. Names I won't repeat, but you can imagine what they are. But what I realized was it takes a lot more courage to step away and not be involved. is the easy thing to do is get involved in rides and sell drugs. That's easy to do because everybody else is doing it. But eventually one of the top guys in my game,

He eventually asked me, it, he pulled me over on the yard and was like, John, is this really what you want? Like, you really want to leave? I was like, yeah. Well, I didn't answer that quickly because I was terrified. He's like, yeah, this is really what I want. And he's like, good, because you're too smart to be in here and you could do more than die in prison. So mind your own business, go home. We love you. Go home. And he was, he's been down, he's been in prison for almost 40 years. did 32 consecutive years in solitary confinement.

The Dental A Team (35:27.213)

He was first arrested when he was four years old. Four? He was four years old and he was arrested. I didn't know they could even arrest four year olds. I didn't know that. Yes. it's kind of, I say this, in the land of the free, we have handcuffs that are small and lifted around the wrist of a four year old child. Wow. Insane. What were his chances that he was going to go to college? What were the chances that he was in a

do anything, but he's one of the most charismatic CEOs you'll ever meet. That's incredible. So you change. I think it's what I love. And I'm curious, do you feel like your solitary confinement and the grit and the mental stamina you built up there possibly could have influenced your decisions to leave and to have a different life? Like, feel like that solitary confinement, if you will allow it, which I think so many things in our lives could allow.

For me, John, listening to your story, I'm curious if you learned mental stamina, mental grit. You'd already done probably some of the hardest things. I think that actually was probably harder than telling people that you want to have a different life. Do you feel like there was any mental stamina that you learned or grit or lessons you learned that maybe made it easier for you, even though easy is like with massive air quotes? Because I don't think any of what you did was easy. But do you think any of that played into it for you? Definitely. It also helped that I've been to that stuff because that's a resume builder in prison that you put in words.

Bender the shoe. This shoe is a solitary housing. It's called solitary housing unit. So then the shoe, you found these things and then when you get to Pelican Bay, which is like the white house or like, it's like where you want to go. If you get to, when you get to Pelican Bay, you're like, yeah, I made it. It's like, that's your like stamp. That's like your stamp of approval. Is that just cause it's the hardest prison? Like why is Pelican Bay? Okay. They're the hardest prison. It was, it's one of the, it's the only super max in California. And I think it's changed now. They're there. Hopefully they shut it down, but it was known for.

All the top game leaders are put in solitary confinement there. And it's where like, there's a few prisons in California and Pelican Bay is one. Pelican Bay was one of them. So like I had the mental grid and determination. I was still terrified. It's like at the end of the day, like I'm just one, just one person, but I really, what I was more afraid of dying in prison than like, because I'm not dying in prison anyways. Like, what are you guys going to do to Right. No, it's a Stupid slash am, like stupid slash arrogant.

The Dental A Team (37:51.329)

which works out, which works out sometimes and right. Yeah. For entrepreneurs, think it works out sometimes. Sometimes it doesn't. It worked out this time. Interesting. Okay. So the five entries is such a cool company and such an amazing thing because it really does help these. I feel like it's almost like the redirect. So you're taking these criminals that have had like amazing, brilliant, you just redirect them into something good because I do believe, and I don't know, you've been in prison, you've seen probably the darker side of life. John, I believe

that people are inherently good. Do you believe that after seeing the dark side of life? you believe that sentiment as well? Yes, I do. And I've seen it. Even the guys that I talk about who have been incarcerated for 30, 40 years and have done, made terrible choices. I've made terrible choices too. There's like when you tap into a softer part of them, when they have hope, hope, when they have hope, right? It makes such a huge difference in someone's life when someone has hope versus

Like you're an animal and you're a monster and you're dying in prison, right? Then when you have hope, some of that good starts to come out. The good, I can see it, I can point to it because I'm right here today. The goodness in them said, John, go home, do good. I still talk to them to this day and they love seeing me win. They love what I get to They love seeing me succeed and do great things, even though they will never, they'll never get out of prison. But they love seeing other people succeed.

Which is incredible to me because you would think like, can criminals really be kind and have kind hearts? Cause you see the evil side of it. I think John, okay, I have a few more questions. I know we're coming up, but like, okay. Question one is tell me about what it was like. Well, actually I'm going to ask this question first. Cause then I want to hear like a happier side. I think there's a preconceived notion about people that who are criminals and then they change that like,

Well, yeah, but is this like a long thing? And like, do you ever get tempted to go, I don't know, do all the things you used to do? Like there was status, there was power. Like, how do you navigate? It's almost like you've tasted of that fruit. How do you not go back to that? As human natures, right? Human nature is easy. like, riddle me on that one. How do people trust him believe that these incarcerated criminals really have like truly changed and are just going to like flip a switch one day or they'll go back to their old roots? Like,

The Dental A Team (40:18.733)

Can you answer anything on that? Because I think that that's a misconception across the board. that takes work. These are patterns for whether someone's in any patterns. It's like addiction. It's a pattern in our life. There's a pathway in our brain, whether it's violence, aggression, whatever it is that we're engaging in. That's a pathway that's been created in our brain and it can become a go-to just like that. So it takes years of work to start undoing those patterns and learning new patterns.

And we can all learn new patterns. Our brains are very, that plasticity, right? Our brains can learn. We're forever learning. So for myself, ask about like, what, do I have criminal thoughts? Yeah, I have them all the time. But I know that I don't want to do, I don't want to do that. Number one is I don't want to create more victims. Number two, I never want to go back to prison. I never want to give up my, I'll never give up my freedom again. There's nothing in this world that will make me give up my freedom again. And I can get my needs met in other ways.

Right? Like whether it's significance, whether it's contribution, whatever those needs are, I can get them, I can meet them now in a legitimate way because I have the skills and the tools to get to meet them. Whereas before, the people who we serve in prison, they didn't have, no one sent them to school. No one sent, like when I dropped, when I got kicked out of school in seventh grade, nobody came to look for me. The school, the school didn't, the school never called my family and asked about me.

No truant officer ever came searching for me. Right? Like that to me, that's why, because there's multiple factors. It could be the neighbor that you grew up in, how much money you have, and the color of your skin. Determines the opportunities and the ways that we were raised. So many of the people who come to prison with us, the volunteers, the CEOs and executives, we ask a series of questions and we ask like, how many of you have more than 50 books in your house growing up? Your parents pay for you to attend private school.

Your parents tucked you into bed every night, right? At least one parent tucked you into bed. Like I heard gunshots in my neighborhood growing up. Like these, and you see the stark contrast between the opportunities that we had. So is it expected that there, that people who are incarcerated have these patterns in their life that have, that have gone on for years. But at Defy, we can teach them and start to give them new patterns of, you used to do this in prison for the gang. Well, you can convert that.

The Dental A Team (42:46.573)

over it, this is a, it's called a transferable skill. You can transfer that skill set over here and use it this way. That's incredible. I love it. And that's ultimately what Defy is for. And that's what like changed your life is this company that you guys are a part of comes in and they teach the curriculum. They give like, you guys have your little SOPs. You've got all your manuals. They go through class. How long do people usually

participate in DeFi before they are. So it's not easy. This is the curriculum they're going through. This is a lot of curriculum that they are going through and reading. And if you have everything in here from self-limiting beliefs to building out your business model to running an MVP, they have everything through that. And it's a lot. It takes around six months for them. It takes about six months for them to get through the curriculum. That's awesome.

And that's like really what your passion is now. So, okay, I'm going to ask the question and then we're going to talk about Defy and how you even got to Defy. But okay, I need to know. So it was probably what 2017 and you were released in 2019? Yeah, got on June 19th, 2019. June 19th. I bet you'll never forget that day. Well, actually I think the greatest thing happened this year I did forget and Casey texted me and was like, congratulations. What for? It's your five years. I forgot that I did forget. That actually felt really good to forget that.

It felt good to forget that. That's amazing. I, that makes me actually so happy because then it's not a stamp of remembering who you were, but who you are today is what you're actually living. So basically two years from the time like you made this decision, two years, you build up a business plan, you're learning all these skills, you're released. I need to know like, and I don't even know if you can put into words, like what did it feel like to have freedom back after 17 years?

of not having freedom, of being in solitary confinement, of feeling like you're gonna be in this for the rest of your life, to then changing and realizing, I want a different life. Can you just explain to the listeners and to me, what does that even feel like? Because I think we take for granted our life, our love, our happiness, all the things that we have on a daily basis, and you had all that stripped away from you for years, for good reason, right? There were consequences associated, but what did that even feel like when you were released? So my release was a bit of a journey.

The Dental A Team (45:04.129)

There was a typo in my transcripts, in my transcripts that I was supposed to, I had committed crimes in Texas where I was originally born. I went back to court, I served my time, I did everything. The transcriber forgot to check a box that I had been incarcerated for 18 years. So I had the federal marshals come pick me up from prison and fly me out to Texas. And they held me against my will for 10 days before they released me.

it took lawyers, I had volunteers or mentors of mine who I met through defy who got me an attorney and fought for me and eventually fought for my eventually won my release after 10 days. but even up until that moment, they called me out and like Jackson, it's called RC or RCO one. Like you're going home. and then I'm like, you're going home. I'm like, I didn't believe them. I felt like I had been screwed over by the system so many times and I.

They're like, give us your social security number forward, give us your social security number backwards, what address you used to live at when you were 13. And I don't remember any of this stuff. And then I get in front of a glass door and they're just waiting for it to open. just didn't believe it was gonna open.

But I finally did and I was able to walk back and I got the hell out of there as fast as I could because I was scared they would come back and take me away and tell me like, we're just screwing with you. Like it's a joke. not really letting you go. And finally made my way back to California. So they flew me out to Texas. I had no idea or nothing. I had to find my way back to California within 72 hours to go over my parole meeting.

So, but I got on a flight. I was able to fly with no ID. How did you do that? That's impressive. So I started working for another organization called 2.0 and we printed up a fake IP. Our business manager printed up a fake IP for me, printed it up, sent it to Kinko's and I went and got it and I got in the plane.

The Dental A Team (47:17.485)

It's fine. We gave away crime. just smelt like it's just a little like we're fine. I had to get back to California to violate my parole. Yeah. All right. So you get back. Go on. was like it's taken. It has taken time to it's very trying. It is re-entering society after 18 years of that. It's very traumatizing. I had a hard time sleeping. didn't sleep. Casey being a

Going to Casey's was actually the first time I fell asleep. I fell asleep at his house. I hadn't slept in close to like five days. I hadn't slept. Just because I couldn't like be in a room with doors and windows and large spaces. I was not used to that. I was used to being in a small cell that, you know, I know everything that's going on in that cell. then it's, it's, it's taken a lot of time, a lot of healing and a lot of therapy to be able to like sleep with my bedroom door open now. Yeah.

That's incredible. It's amazing. John, like it was thank you for sharing because it touches me too, because I can only imagine and I felt it. I think at a very small level because I'll never know what that felt like. To hear because I agree, I it was so like, this even real life? And well, I mean, I've got all the hopes and aspirations, but will I actually be able to achieve everything that I know I'm meant to do? And then now five years later, you're married, you have a house, you you've got this happy life. Like

I just remember watching you at Tony Robbins and I think so many people love being there. And I feel like you're experiencing life like for the first time. It's almost like watching a child experience life, not that you're a child, but just the joy and the love and like you're experiencing life I feel firsthand for the first time right now. And I think to be able to watch you do that was so magical for me because like I take these things for granted. I mean, I get to go to these events and I get to have these and like, yes, it's amazing, but.

Like watching you just, feels like every day you live, you live to the fullest. And I don't know if you want to comment on that. And then I want to talk about Defy and help you. I try to, I still like, I have hard days. I have days like, I, that, that days that suck, days that are like not the best, right? But trying to practice gratitude and I can, I can forget that sometimes. can forget, but I actually like thinking about it, I'm actually grateful that sometimes I can have those days because I'm that far away from where I used to be that I can be like,

The Dental A Team (49:39.949)

crap, I'm stuck in traffic. I'm not in solitary confinement. This traffic, I mean, 80 is really bad. I'll give it Five years ago, like, I would have done anything to just be able to sit in traffic, right? And sitting at cell. But I look at it as like, but it's a good reminder to be like, yeah, could have, I could, my life could be much, much worse. But today I get to use my life for to do great. I get to live what I believe is my purpose and why God put me on this earth. So I love that.

I love that you just said that because I think maybe that was like the piece I wanted people to hear. There's so many pieces I wanted people to hear from you, but to hear like today I get to live my life on purpose. I get to live what I was meant to be here for. And I think like hearing someone like John, I don't think so many of us listening will ever understand what it feels like to be in prison for 18 years. Like I hope so many people don't have that. And I think just like you really bring me back to gratitude every time I talk to you of just like how blessed I am to have the life I have and to

like live those days and to live the purpose that I was meant to be and like we're all created for more. And so tell me a little bit about Kay, here's John five years. You have to five ventures kind of tell us a little bit about what the five ventures are because I think it's incredible that entrepreneurs like most of the listeners here were able to go in and give you the gift of entrepreneurship. And now you're doing that for more incarcerated criminals. And when Casey talked on stage, he said like,

The US is not as big of a population and yet we house the most criminals within the US. Like you probably know those stats way better than I do. We have about 5 % of the world's population, but we incarcerate 25%. We have 25 % of the world's incarcerated population. The vast majority of them are black and brown people. That's just the reality. We have one of the highest recidivism rates in the world. All of these things that show that we have a broken system, a system that does not work.

And I know what you went to me when I heard that I was like staggering statistics. And just thinking like what you guys are trying to do is stop generational crime and stop like the path of cradle to grave and like, I don't know you said blood to casket, like crazy to me that that's how but you're like, this is my life. That's all you know. And it's like, well, think about where we raise and like, my parents went to college. So I went to college and

The Dental A Team (51:57.229)

Like, yes, we can break away from it, but breaking away from the mold, I do think is hard. And so kind of tell us a little about about five ventures. And if people are interested, this is our live to give this year of like having a way to give back. was so incredible to see how many people were able to help through this program at Tony Robbins. And then also for me and all the listeners know every year we do live to give and something that just really is a bigger impact than ourselves. Cause I believe we're so blessed as entrepreneurs, let's give back and serve more. So kind of tell us a little about.

what DeFi Ventures does and how people can get a part of that if they want to. Yeah, so DeFi, we leverage entrepreneurship. We want to, it's we call it transforming their hustle, right? It's taking all those skills that they've learned through the criminal and gang life and using them to apply to start their own business. And they don't have to start a business. They can also do that, like being what's called an entrepreneur, where you are using that creativity, using all your skills as an employee. So we leverage that. And what we do is we

also recruit CEOs, executives and business leaders to come into prison with us for our events. They're very similar to what we get to do at Tony Robbins. People jumping around, having a great time, getting people in state and giving feedback on their business pitches. Because we're going to get them all the way to writing a business pitch and post it after they get out of prison. We help them get them all the way to seed funding as well. If they're doing, if they're meeting certain benchmarks, we'll put them in front of investors to help them start their business.

but they have to have a job, have to have stable housing, which we help them do after they get out. We're building character and leadership development in them as well. Because as you know, as entrepreneurs, it's not just about making money. Like that's not what defines an entrepreneur. There's a lot that goes into it. Like you can make a boat ton of money and ruin your life, ruin your marriage, ruin a whole lot of things if you don't have great coping skills. So we take a holistic approach to the healing and...

That's a big part of what we get to do at Defy is yes, we want you to start a business, but more than that, we want you to develop you as leaders and develop your character. So to date, we've helped launch over 600 businesses for people who are formerly incarcerated. One of the guys you can look up, he's a rock star, name is Cos Marte. He founded a company called ConBody. I he's got over 75,000 customers and he does prison style workouts for people. So if you want a good workout, you can go to ConBody.

The Dental A Team (54:15.469)

and we'll partner you up with somebody who's formerly incarcerated and they'll get your butt working out. We have lot of things by 90 % employment rate, 90 days post release for our EITs. We call it EITs. That stands for Entrepreneurs in Training. And so when they get out, we help them get jobs. We have partnership with Google, Apple, LegalZoom to help them get on their feet, them get a laptop, start their business, incorporate their business. And the ways to get involved are one,

We're a 501c3 nonprofit, so it costs us $1,700 per person to put someone through the CEO of your New Life program. So you can sponsor someone. Even in your chapter, we have multiple chapters. We're a nationwide organization. So if you're in Utah, California, Washington, the tri-state area, Pennsylvania, Illinois, can search for defy.org and support a chapter near you. Or you can...

We go to volunteer as well. love bringing people into prison, business coaches and mentors to come in and invest in our entrepreneurs and training and give them the feedback that they desperately need. And it makes a huge difference when you come to prison with us and invest in people for people who have been incarcerated 20, 25, 30 years that people actually care. And it also starts like what happened for you, Kiera, it starts to break those stereotypes or those beliefs that you have about what someone is from there, who someone is.

that has committed a crime or someone who's incarcerated. Yeah, I love it. Dental A Team does live to give every single year. this is just something when I met you, John, and yes, we won the trophy. But like I said, I feel like we won life. you've just taught me to, like I said, you can love yourself even in spite of everything that's happened. And you see yourself as, I'm John. Yes, I've done those things. But like, I love me as a person. And I can feel sad for those things. And I can have remorse. And I can do all the things to repair.

but it doesn't define you either. And I feel like you just have this love and this sparkle of life, which makes me so happy. And then to be able to give that to other people, I think is just an incredible cause that you guys are doing and excited. I'll be there January 17th. I'll see you guys. And am I scared out of my mind? I'm like, John, are you sure I'll be safe? Like, how do know these people aren't going to like grab my hair and hold me by my throat with a knife? Like, do I fear that? John. can address that right now. And I could just share with people who might think that prison is a...

The Dental A Team (56:40.941)

So these are rules that are in prison from gangs, right? That like, not saying that I agree with them, but like, if you have a sex offense, you rape or child molestation, those types of crimes are severely frowned upon and actually violence is committed against people who come in with those crimes. And I brought hundreds and thousands of hundreds, literally hundreds, and over the 10 years that we've been doing this organization, we brought thousands of women to prison. Never once have we had any incident. It is one of the most

The men there that you will meet will be the most respectful kind. One of the safest places you can be is actually in a maximum security prison, especially for women. respect that the men have in there for you all coming in there to support us and care about us. We know why you're there. It's to serve and I want to learn from you. I'm not there trying to do anything else. I want to learn from you. That's really what it's about.

That's amazing. And thank you for speaking to that because I do like those are the fears that's media and but I think it's such an incredible cause to give people a second chance in life and to put them through programs like yourself where you are coming as the product of this program and looking what you can do for all these people. So John, I just appreciate you in my life. I appreciate learning from you. I appreciate that you let me ask all of my questions and your story.

You're a great question asker. That's why we want to talk about it. I was not here asking questions. You're a great interview and a great question asker. Thank you. Well, it's genuine curiosity because just to see who you are today versus where you were five years ago, seven years ago. And what I think is also magical is it didn't take a long time, right? Like you were in prison for 14 years and you were able to turn your life like to also give hope that if people have addictions or people have done things in their life they're not proud of.

It didn't take you 17 years. For sure, you're gonna spend the rest of your life trying to make up for the pain that you maybe caused other people, but you're doing that and by stopping generational crime and making those changes that I think for people, you give hope. You give hope for loving ourselves. You give hope for forgiveness. You give hope for the beauty of life. You give hope for things that we can do to invest and to give back to a greater cause. And I just think you're such a special person that this world is so lucky to have a part of.

The Dental A Team (59:02.625)

Well, thank you and your curiosity and your light and the love that you give off is really very inviting and very welcoming. So I'm very grateful for you and having me today and being your friend. really grateful to have you my life as well. I hope you quickly become a really great friend and I really look forward to seeing you in prison. I know, right? It sounds like a funny, a funny phrase, but agreed. so for all of you, if you feel called, like just check it out. I think it's such an incredible thing. But find something like I'm always about live to give and how can we give and serve? What, whether it's

prison, whether it's sex trafficking, whether, whatever it is, child hunger, find something where you can give back and truly change lives because I truly do believe at the heart of every person in this world, no matter what they've done, people are inherently good and people want to be good. And sometimes they just need to have somebody believe in them and love them as well. So John, thank you for being on our podcast and sharing your very personal life. I just appreciate you a ton. Thank you for having me. I appreciate you as well. Of course.

And for all of you listening, thank you for listening and I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.