Alison '15 and Paul '16 Yang - 5 Things that Make Great Leaders

THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST

What are the top five characteristics great leaders share? Academy graduates, Alison ’15 and Paul ’16 Yang, discuss that answer — and more!

----more----SUMMARY

Alison '15 and Paul '15 Yang discuss their backgrounds, experiences at the Air Force Academy, transition to the corporate world, and key qualities of successful leaders. Their leadership lessons and takeaways? The importance of caring about people, having humility, being resilient, managing stakeholders, and leading through change.

LEARN. ENGAGE. LEAD!

Read Veterans in Leadership: How Military Careers Can Shape Corporate Success including the contributions of Alison and Paul Yang.

DOWNLOAD THE VETERANS IN LEADERSHIP PDF HERE | SPENCERSTUART.COM

DOWNLOADABLE PDF - AS FEATURED IN THE SPRING 2024 EDITION OF JOURNAL OF CHARACTER AND LEADERSHIP DEVELOPMENT

OUR FAVORITE QUOTES

- "Care about people, whether that's, you know, asking about how their day was to participate in the flightline and solving everyday problems." - Paul Yang

- "You have the humility to set yourself aside. You have a leg up, which enables you to have teams that perform under pressure and operate well through change." - Alison Yang

- "I truly did [enjoy the YC advice]. I think sometimes Alison is very good at telling you what you need to hear." - Paul Yang

- "Folks that come out of the military have no quit. If when we asked him to expand that out, he talked about how, when someone is asked whether or not they're willing to potentially make the ultimate sacrifice for this country, any other ask following that, in and out of the military becomes, I don't want to say easy, but it's going to fall short of it, right." - Paul Yang

- "Care about people. And if you care about people, your interpersonal skills are likely decent, you have the humility to set yourself aside, you have a leg up on stakeholder management, which enables you to have teams that perform under pressure and operate well through change." - Alison Yang

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CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction and Background
03:47 Childhood and Influences
07:04 High School and Leadership
10:51 Air Force Academy Experience
14:47 Career Choices: Maintenance Officer and Intelligence
20:30 Leadership Skills from the Military
24:03 Transitioning to the Corporate World
29:40 Transitioning as a Couple
35:13 Mistakes and Lessons Learned
46:23 Key Qualities of Successful Leaders
53:20 Advice for Future Leaders
58:02 Closing Remarks and Contact Information
59:05 How They Met
01:00:09 First Impressions
01:01:52 Working Together
01:02:52 Thoughts on Wise Advice

OUR FAVORITE TAKEAWAYS

- Caring about people is a key quality of successful leaders.
- Humility and resilience are important traits for leaders.
- Effective stakeholder management and leading through change are crucial skills.
- Transitioning from the military to the corporate world requires support and networking.
- Continuous learning and self-improvement are essential for leadership development.

BIOS

Alison Yang '16

I lead the delivery of global executive searches for US industrial companies and specialize in engineered products, distribution, and aerospace & defense.
Spencer Stuart is the world’s leading leadership advisory firm. Founded in 1956 and privately owned, we are the adviser of choice among organizations seeking guidance and counsel on senior leadership needs. We work with clients across a range of industries, from the world’s largest companies to medium-sized businesses, entrepreneurial startups and nonprofit organizations.
Spencer Stuart today has 56 offices in 30 countries. Our global reach, leadership in CEO and senior executive searches, and status as the premier firm for board counsel give us unparalleled access to the world’s top executive talent.

CONNECT WITH ALISON

- Copy and image credit: www.linkedin.com

Paul Yang '15

Spencer Stuart is one of the world's leading executive search consulting firms. Founded in 1956 and privately owned, we are the advisor of choice among organizations seeking guidance and counsel on senior leadership needs. We work with clients across a range of industries, from the world's largest companies to medium-sized businesses, entrepreneurial startups and nonprofit organizations. Through 56 offices in 30 countries and a broad range of practice groups, our global reach, leadership in CEO and senior executive searches, and status as the premier firm for board counsel give us unparalleled access to the world’s top executive talent.

CONNECT WITH PAUL

- Copy and image credit: www.linkedin.com

LEARN MORE ABOUT SPENCER STUART

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FULL TRANSCRIPT

SPEAKERS

Our Host is Dr. Doug Lindsay '92 | Our Guests are Alison '15 and Paul '16 Yang

Paul Yang 00:08

It’s real lives and young airmen and enlisted folks that you're put in charge of, and really making a true impact in people's lives on a day to day basis.

Alison Yang 00:16

The one theme, if we could say, captures all of this, is care about people.

Paul Yang 00:24

Whether that's, you know, asking about how their day was to supporting flightline and solving everyday problems.

Alison Yang 00:31

You have the humility to set yourself aside. You have a leg up, which enables you to have teams that perform under pressure and operate well through change. And it's also the difference between having people who just get the job done because they have to versus the people who get the job done because they want to. They believe in you.

Doug Lindsay 01:19

My guests today are Allison and Paul Yang, USAFA class of 2015 and 2016, respectively. Allison and Paul are a married couple based in the Washington, DC area and both work at Spencer Stewart, a global executive search and leadership advisory firm as associates in executive search. Both served in the Air Force with distinction winding up their careers in 2022 as officers in intelligence and maintenance leading large teams. They are accomplished students of leadership and writers, which is how we met Allison and Paul. The pair recently contributed to an article on veterans and leadership in a Spencer Stewart publication. The article featured profiles of 10 prominent CEOs, three of whom are USAFA graduates and currently lead United Airlines, McAfee and Johnstone Supply. We’ll spend the next few minutes getting to know Allison and Paul, and we'll talk about their work with Spencer Stewart. Then we'll focus on the top five qualities they believe make the best leaders. And finally, we'll ask them to share one or two bits of advice they would give to those who want to be leaders and leaders who want to become even better. Joining us from the DC area, Allison and Paul, welcome to the Long Blue Leadership podcast.

Alison Yang 02:31

Thanks, Doug. We're happy to be here.

Paul Yang 02:32

Hey, Doug, happy to be here as well.

Doug Lindsay 02:34

Glad to have you. As we get started, if you don't mind, would you give us a little bit of a backstory on your lives as children before you got to the Academy? What was that like? And what was your growing up experience like?

Paul Yang 02:46

Sure, I could start. So I come from an immigrant family. My parents moved to the United States in 1993. When I was about two and a half years old, they moved to Queens, New York. My mom was a pharmacist and my dad was a truck driver. And so it was an interesting sort of startup story is what I'd like to call it. In the sense that I spent my weekends teaching my parents the English that I had learned during school and spent the weekend doing that for my parents. It was also a little bit of a challenging household as well. Maybe it's a little too much. But my dad was a bit of an alcoholic. A lot of stress growing up in this country and not knowing the language and trying to navigate it being in a completely different environment. So that led to sometimes an unsafe environment, but heavily influenced how I operate and how I think, being a problem solver paying, attention to detail, facing adversity, etc.

Alison Yang 03:44

I had a bit of a different childhood. I had what you would describe as an all-American childhood. My mom was a first grade teacher, my dad was an Air Force officer and had two younger brothers close in age. We were all best friends, all loved sports and we had to be best friends because we moved every few years or so but that really taught me how to be resilient, how to adapt to a lot of change in life. And I ended up growing this love for people. I loved meeting new people everywhere I went. I know sometimes it can go the other way where you hate moving. But for some reason I really clung on to that.

Doug Lindsay 04:20

So very different kind of origin stories there. But with those kinds of influences, and Paul, you mentioned that some of the challenges you had with that home dynamic and but also, Alison moving around a little bit. How did that translate into wanting to go to the Academy and doing that kind of opportunity? Was that something that's always kind of part of who you were? Alison, you said you like people and was that just part of that idea of service? Or how did that all come to be?

Alison Yang 04:47

Yeah, sure. I think I'd always been a very outgoing kid always driven to be an achiever. So, this passion for people, I would say it especially started in high school and I prided myself on knowing everyone in the in the class so I was class president. And you know, I was friends with the dorks and was friends with the popular kids. And my proudest moment in high school was actually, I was a benchwarmer on the varsity basketball team. And I was voted captain of my varsity basketball team. So, I would go up against, you know, the star player on the opposing team. I'd come off the bench, flip the coin and go sit back down on the bench, you know, it’s sort of like a Rudy story. They throw me in the last few minutes of the game. But anyway, really proud of that. And then also saw the service aspect from my dad, and then saw a lot of women in leadership and knew that that's something I could totally do that I would love to do that I'd love a challenge. And so yeah, I would definitely say that all stemmed from my childhood.

Paul Yang 05:51

And then for me, I'd say my parents really encouraged me to kind of go out there and learn what's out there and get involved as much as I can. We kind of had this rule where in the house, we would speak Korean. But then when you're outside of the house, you're speaking English all the time. Which is interesting, you know, because my parents wanted to learn the learn the language and get familiar with it. But that made that basically kind of ingrained in me this idea that there's this whole world of knowledge out there, and there's all these things to do, especially being in a brand new country. So, throughout my childhood and growing up, I spent a lot of time getting involved in different clubs, in different sports, just because I wasn't familiar with it and be because I wanted to learn it and figure it out. So, I did a varying range of things. I did Model UN, I tried out the robotics club. I wasn't very good at it, but I tried it, I can say that, and a couple of different sports. That influenced me when I got to the Academy because I tried out for a sport that I never played before. And I ended up playing the whole, season, which is, you know, pretty interesting. And it was a great, great time to do that. But I, didn't really know that the Air Force Academy existed. I just kind of knew, hey, I want to give back to this country. I want to give, I want to be able to serve, I want to be able to give back. And so I always knew I wanted to give, join the military. And I guess that's what kind of led me down the path of going to the academy and listed first out of high school. And I was really, really fortunate and lucky to be surrounded by some key mentors of mine that told me that this place called this the Air Force Academy existed in Colorado Springs. You should apply. So much so that they were like, “Hey, don't have to work until you finish your application”, you know. So, I was very fortunate to have those folks that champion me, again, kind of further shaped my view of leadership later on in life.

Doug Lindsay 07:52

And then Allison for you in terms of the Academy itself, was it something you were familiar with? Because of your dad? How did you come to know about the Academy?

Alison Yang 08:02

And so yeah, he was not an Academy grad. So, for me, I, you know, my junior year of high school was considering the options. And I heard about the Air Force Academy, knew about it from my dad, who had friends who had gone to the Academy, and I've stepped into the Junior ROTC in my high school and said, “Hey, I'd love like a pamphlet on the Air Force Academy”. And they're like, “Sit down”, you know, “what sports are you in?” I was like, “What? “Whoa, I just want a pamphlet”. But, but anyway, that sort of started the process. And once I started the application process, which is, as a lot of listeners know, it's just an intensive application process, and you feel like you've achieved something when you submit it. So, I was really excited, you know, to have that opportunity. And yeah, I just, I knew it was right for me, especially as someone who was an achiever.

Doug Lindsay 08:54

So, what was that like when you got here then? So, you kind of very accomplished in high school, a lot of activity really busy. And then you kind of… that meets reality, when you actually kind of get here on in-processing and do that. What was that? Like, once you kind of got here in terms of that? Was it confirming or affirming of what you were doing? Or, were there some questions about, “What did I get myself into?”

Alison Yang 09:16

I loved it. And I had watched a lot of videos about basic training. But I have a really funny story. In my in-processing day, I was ready to conquer it, you know, got through all the screaming on the footprints. And I was like, I just got to make it to my room and I'll have some roommates and I can commiserate. We can do this together. And I get to my dorm room. And my two roommates one of them wouldn't speak to me. She was too nervous to talk. The other one had started hyperventilating. And she couldn't calm down. And so I will say both of them are incredible officers still in the Air Force today. Both made it through but in that moment, I said to myself, I'm gonna have to do this. This is gonna be me. We're gonna, you know and so it was a little bit of a reality check once I got to that moment.

Paul Yang 10:03

Yeah, for me, I would say I-day in-processing and basic training at the Academy felt in an odd way familiar, right, because I had gone through enlisted basic training. And then I went to the prep school and went through basic training there. So by the time it came around, I kind of knew, Okay, I'm gonna get yelled at, they're gonna break us down and go through this whole process. But I felt this need or this kind of calling to help my other classmates, because many of which were coming, many of whom were coming straight out of high school. And so even as simple as rolling socks, and cleaning your room, and hospital corners, those are things that I would say I've been doing every day, right, once you get out of basic training, but something I was familiar with at the very least. And so that desire to kind of share what I had known, even if it's something as simple as rolling socks, and folding your t-shirts in the right way to meet the measurements, I figured, you know, this is something that I know this is something that could be helpful in some way, shape or form. Let me go ahead and share that. And so my whole like early stages, or the early days at the Academy, that's what I felt called to do. Sharing that knowledge.

Doug Lindsay 11:14

Both of you (had) different kind of unique experiences as you work through the 47 months of the Academy, right? You're exposed to these new things. What would you say are kind of the couple of maybe crucible moments or the important moments or impacts that the Academy had on you during that time in terms of your development, not just as a person, but as a leader?

Paul Yang 11:37

I had never played a game of soccer in my in my entire life. Maybe it's because I grew up in New York, and there's not many fields. Maybe that's the reason why but I never played it. And so when I got this was during the prep school, when I got to the prep school, one of my buddies and my unit, or my squadron said, “Hey, you should try out for this team. You seem athletic, you'd like to run, why don't you come out to the field and try it out.” I did. And I enjoyed it. I didn't know how to kick a soccer ball the right way. But I knew how to run. And I knew that I was competitive and sort of headstrong in that way. So, I would say that was a highlight. And I got lucky because the person that would be starting in the position that I was in as left back ended up getting injured. And so I found myself in this situation of okay, I basically know how to play this sport. I can listen, I can listen to my coach's advice. But I have now I found myself in a starting position. I wasn't again, one repeat, like I wasn't very good. But I felt like what an opportunity to be able to play this sport at this level, having never played it before. And the Academy, certainly, you know, only a place like that, where you're given an opportunity like that, right? So that was like a pretty big moment, for me. A very proud moment. Maybe like a low-light for me, it was about halfway through the Academy, I was going through some personal things that I maybe lost sight of and I let it affect my academics, particularly one class, and I ended up failing a course. And at the end of the semester is you know, when you fail the course you go through the board process and you kind of go through, hey, you're gonna make it through. And I almost got disenrolled and I had my act advisor, someone you may know, Doug, but he really championed me. And he said, “Hey, it's okay, this these things happen”. Kind of brought me back down to earth and went through the board process ended up obviously not getting disenrolled. But it was a big, it was a big, tough pill for me to swallow of, hey, there are things in life that you need to focus on and make sure they're squared away and good to go. And ensure that it doesn't leak into other areas of your life is particularly if if there are high stakes involved, right, like enrollment at the Air Force Academy. Yeah.

Doug Lindsay 13:57

And I think that's an important part, right? Because that we tend to focus on maybe the positives, right? And we don't realize that without those kind of crucible moments, those kind of lower points that, you know, that helps frame out who we are, our perspective and who knows that opportunity. It sounds like it kind of change your trajectory a little bit about kind of reassessing. What am I doing here? What do I really want to get out of it? Right?

Paul Yang 14:19

Yeah, certainly a while I certainly cared more about academics after the fact. But it was it was a good lesson of, hey, this is real, you know, and I think to your point of, sometimes you could be flying high and in a really good place and you don't realize these little areas of your life that may be taking a toll and maybe require your attention and I think it's a good leadership theme as well. Of their different areas. It takes a lot of bandwidth. And so, making sure you take the time to take a step back and a lot your effort and your capacity in the areas that require it so that you are healthy and you're good to go. So that you can be present.

Doug Lindsay 15:01

Had a similar experience one of my semesters, my first semester sophomore year, I came in at a 2.0. And it was really close enough to the sun, so to speak, that that was my crucible moment. I'm like, that was a real evaluation moment for me to go. Okay, I need to, I need to do some things differently if I want to keep making this happen. Allison, how about you maybe some high and low point for you as well?

Alison Yang 15:25

Yeah, one of my favorite things about the Air Force Academy is just the incredible opportunities that it affords cadets so, I did the jump program, I did an immersion trip to Poland, I did a language trip to Morocco, a DC trip for a history class, I was on the lacrosse team and got to travel all over the place, marched in an Inauguration Day parade. So, all of those were just incredible moments. I would say the biggest thing that had an impact on my leadership is I was able to be the cadet squadron commander, my senior year. I'll say that peer leadership is the hardest thing. And I think that being a cadet, anything, you know, as a leader of cadets is harder than any officer leadership position I had, probably because there's, you know, formal structure within the military, there's, there's a natural chain of command, but when you're leading your peers, you know, you have to live with them every day too. So, it's a total exercise in dealing with people interpersonal skills. You know, in your, it was the greatest leadership gift I think the Academy afforded me. And then the low-light for me. So, I was the wing Command Chief, which was, you know, the top junior position, my junior year, and I did something called Weiss Advice. My last name was Weiss at the time, and I would go up on the staff tower, and I would give everyone morning advice at 6:00 a.m. before their breakfast, you know, something like, “Be a good friend today”. You know, you never know what your team your teammate is going through. This was at a time where there was social media that was allowed, and people could, you know, talk chat about whatever going on at the Academy. And I would say about half the wing was indifferent, a quarter loved the Weiss advice, and a quarter hated the Weiss Advice. And so, I got that direct feedback. And so, it was a great lesson to me that not everyone's going to love everything that you do. And especially as a person who really, who loves people who wants to be friends with everyone, learning that sometimes as a leader, you have to make tough decisions, or you have to do things that maybe not everyone will be on board with. But that was a, you know, it was a great lesson for me at that time that I carried on throughout my officer career.

Doug Lindsay 17:54

Taking those experiences you had at the Academy, how did that translate into saying, “Hey, I want to be a maintenance officer. I want to be an Intel officer?”.

Alison Yang 18:02

Yeah, and for me, I loved my political science and international relations classes. And that drew me into an interest in the intelligence field and just really synthesizing data about the world, understanding what drives our adversaries what motivates people again, and then ultimately, you know, proposing solutions actionable solutions to leaders to make decisions. So really enabling operations, which I loved, it would get me as close to operations as possible without actually flying in a plane. I tried power flight. Threw up every time so I knew that being a pilot was not for me. But yeah, just that foundation in my classes actually at the Academy drew me into intelligence.

Paul Yang 18:49

Well, I chose to be a maintenance officer. I put that as my top choice. Early in my first year, when we were putting in our preferences, I was thinking through okay, what's the career field where that'll provide me sort of the best opportunity to do exactly what I enjoy doing, which is championing others in solving problems. And obviously, by me gravitating towards leadership opportunities and learning about the world kind of pointed me towards the direction of maintenance because I knew that maintenance is a tough leadership environment, especially as a brand new lieutenant, you're kind of thrown in there, leading dozens plus people and there's a lot of problems to solve from the operational side and so okay, this is I think this is where I belong. I spoke to a number of different maintenance officers at the time there were AOCs some academic instructors as well. And so I knew okay, this is this is where I want to go and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I love the environment of being a thrown into somewhere where there's high stakes, it's on, it's on you and your team to figure something out. And it's real lives and real young airmen and enlisted folks that you're put in charge of and being able to be there relying on senior NCOs. And really making a true impact in people's lives on a day-to-day basis for the better, whether that's, you know, asking about how their day was to champion them because they need time off and managing their schedule to make sure that they have what they need to be best supported to, to support in the flightline and solving everyday problems. We don't have to go too much into the details there. But it's a tough group all dapper operationally. And I gravitated towards that.

Doug Lindsay 20:45

And I do want to ask a question about how you all got together. So, class of 2015 class of 2016, both at the academy at the at the same time, and now and you're married. So, can you tell us a little bit about how that started or how you met?

Alison Yang 21:00

I first remember meeting Paul, when he walked into an interview that I was holding, for my second in command as I was a cadet squadron commander, so I was looking for my superintendent and Paul interviewed for that role was the first time I had met him. I was dating someone else at the time. So, I had no romantic interest in him. But that was the first time I remember meeting him and I hired him. So, he worked with me for a semester. And then we became great friends after that.

Paul Yang 21:31

I think we had talked about earlier when Allison at six at six o'clock in the morning was sharing Weiss Advice up on the staff tower, before breakfast, when everyone's just trying to make it through the day. I learned obviously from a distance, and I had a lot of respect for her. I obviously still have a ton of respect for her now. And then when I found out that I was moving into 30, and I was applying to be her superintendent, I was like, “Wow, I would love to get to know this individual. And I’d love even more so to work for her”. So, there's kind of his running joke where our relationship started with Alison being my boss, and she still is today. Very much so and so that's sort of like our, our founding story, if you will.

Doug Lindsay 22:19

And then Paul, a question for you. So, the Weiss Advice that Alison talked about, what was your reaction sitting in, in Mitchell Hall hearing that that information?

Paul Yang 22:29

I personally enjoyed it. I think “Al” (short for Alison) had mentioned that maybe like, maybe a quarter of the people really, really enjoyed it. But I truly did. I think sometimes Al is very good at telling you what you need to hear. And certainly in our, in our marriage. And so, I really appreciated that even at the early waking morning hours of the day, that Allison was getting up there and saying some true hard things, like, “Be a friend. Support somebody. Be there for one another. If you have a tough test, at the end of the day, you'll be done with it”. I mean, just like simple things like that might not sound like a lot at the surface level. But it really hits home because it's just real. And it's true. And it's and it's honest. And so, to answer your question bluntly, I loved it.

Doug Lindsay 23:20

The Academy and the experiences that you've kind of talked a little about really spring-boarded you in those careers, because you obviously had success early on in maintenance and intel. What was it that you think you got out of the Academy that really kind of helped set the stage for you there?

Alison Yang 23:35

I think I would go back to the whole peer leadership thing, the fact that I had already been leading, you know, leading people honestly, as a senior and then went straight into, you know, my job as an Intel officer, I was leading a floor of 75 airmen at DGS Ops Center, and it was just awesome. I just had all these people around me, I knew how to interact with people I knew, you know. And then you even have an operational mission then so then it just becomes even more important. And I think that really set the stage. I mean, all of the character and leadership development that were taught at the Air Force Academy, all of that becomes second nature. You know, that's nothing that we have to learn at that point and, and being that kind of leader for people I think really helped me spring-board as just a second lieutenant into a successful intel career.

Paul Yang 24:34

The wealth of resources that the Air Force Academy has, even if it's just walking down the hallway, and talking to your AOC, who had spent probably 10 plus years in a specific career field and knows people in other career fields. And so, the networking aspect that the Air Force Academy provides is huge and being able to literally just walk down the hallway or maybe it's your instructor for one of your classes that came out of a curriculum to teach at the Air Force Academy. So, utilizing that network, and just knowing the wealth of knowledge and resources there has been huge.

Doug Lindsay 25:11

It's just always interesting to me to see the path that people choose. Because I certainly had my path and I found my way through. But it's just very interesting how personal that is, even though we all kind of go through a similar process, how we personalize that it's just really, I think, interesting as part of our journeys. And so, you're on active duty, you're having a lot of success, and then both decide to transition to something different. So can you talk to me a little bit about what that transition was like in terms of kind of getting into the space that you're in now kind of more the leader development space with, with where you're at right now.

Paul Yang 25:46

So, we decided to transition out at the same time, which, by the way, many of our colleagues and close friends thought we were crazy to be separating at the same time, due to the sheer amount of risk there. But you know, we took a leap of faith, we attended a career conference through a junior military officer, hiring and transitioning company. And when we attended this conference, Allison and I, we really kind of focused on the company culture, and the mission of the company. That's because we're coming out of the military, you know, we naturally gravitate towards companies that had a clear and defined mission orientation or goal, something that is founded on a clear values that aligned with the things that we felt we aligned with. And so, we both came across specially actually, we were, when we attended a career conference, they told us, you know, don't really lead with, hey, you guys are married. Because we were actually interviewed with very similar companies. And there was a decent amount of overlap, they told us to attend as individuals, rack and stack them in your in your brain individually and see where the alignment is with location with career fields and in different areas. And we came across an executive search firm, Spencer Stewart, and we just absolutely head over heels fell in love with the company culture and the type of work that it is, and it's certainly aligned, I guess I'll just speak for myself in this area, but it'll align with how I think and, and how I approach my day to day, which is championing the people, giving people a chance and solving problems. And so being in executive search, that's essentially what you get to do. You're helping your clients solve problems. And in this case, it would be leadership gaps, whether it's succession planning, maybe someone's retiring, etc. And you're talking to people about potential candidates for a role that maybe otherwise wouldn't have landed on their, on their radar in the past. And so being able to learn their story, figure out what their career goals are. And if there's an alignment with where they are trying to go with an opportunity to that a company can offer a great, let's talk about it.

Alison Yang 28:04

I agree, everything that Paul says is accurate. And maybe just to answer just the beginning of your question, why we made the decision. So we were both hard charging on active duty and really loved the service. For us, we just had decided, okay, we're going to be in a position where one of us will have to deploy the other will have to go back to teach. If we had this, we could see our career paths taking a divergent, you know, path, I guess you'd say. And so, we decided, let's just see what else is out there. And let's see what we can do. Paul had some experience that you know, from his dad and the business experience he's had in this country. For me, brand new, had no, you know, didn't even know what corporate life was like. And I said, “If not now, then when?”, and we made the leap and, and everything Paul said about Spencer Stuart so we joined. The culture is incredible. And we've really enjoyed our time so far in the year and a half we've been here.

Doug Lindsay 29:02

What was it that really kind of helped you kind of land successfully on the other side, because we know sometimes people struggle a little bit there sometimes in terms of what do I want to do?

Paul Yang 29:12

We were doing it together. And so, we naturally just had someone across the dinner table championing each other and going through the same experience together. And so being able to talk through ideas, talk through all the different scenarios and just having an ear that would listen was really, really helpful for us. And I wouldn't say that's, that's the only way but just having a partner through that, I think kind of tells a broader story of making sure that you surround yourself with folks around you that that have been through something like this before, or, or is going through it and being able to talk through things and act as a sounding board was really helpful for us.

Alison Yang 30:00

We are also huge proponents of transition companies, especially for junior military officers, we would have had no idea and we partnered with Cameron Brooks, spent a whole year in their program. They helped us translate our military skills into corporate speak, helped us with resumes. And then we had about 20 different companies that were aligned to our experiences that we would have never thought we would be qualified for. And if it were not for a program like that, I'm not sure we would have known and not only that, we had all these different industries we can compare. So, Paul and I got to say, “Alright, do we want to do manufacturing? Do we want to do banking? You know, do we want to be in professional services?” And we ultimately chose that incredible experience overall.

Doug Lindsay 30:47

Any regrets? No, that's great.

Alison Yang

None.

Paul Yang 30:50

No, no regrets.

Doug Lindsay 30:52

You talked about executive search and doing some of that. Can you walk us through a little bit what that looks like?

Paul Yang 30:57

At our firm where we're in executive search. And so that's actually a world we didn't know existed prior to going into the career conference and starting in this firm, but, but basically, we help large, mid to large sized companies on the public side and, and then on the private side, as well, we help leaders sort of make career moves, or we help clients solve their internal succession and leadership planning. What that looks like on a day to day basis, just to kind of maybe break it down, is a lot of calls a lot of internal and external conversations where you're running projects or searches internally, and just making sure we're following the process. And we're making sure we're managing things internally hitting all the dates for the deliverables. And then externally, lots of meetings with clients providing updates on market feedback, it also is probably the bulk of the amount of time that we spend is having conversations with potential candidates to make sure that we go through the full assessment process and doing our full due diligence to ensure that the folks that we would be potentially putting forth on a search on an opportunity are aligned well, yeah.

Alison Yang 32:16

And then Paul and I are both in different practices within the firm. So, I'm in the industrial practice, which means that I help recruit, assess and place executives in any domain within industrial so that could be oil and gas. That could be you know, manufactured products, engineered products, aerospace and defense distribution at large. It could be anything within the industrial sector, anywhere from a vice president level up to CEO.

Paul Yang 32:50

And I'm in, I'm in more of a functional practice, we call it financial officer practice, or basically CFOs. So, most of my work is basically, all of my work is with finance executives. So, CFOs and key deputies, and that's since it's functional. I basically spent a lot of my time across many different industries, because I think CFO-speak is pretty transferable from, from one company to another, from one industry to another, with the exception of a few that are just, they're different. But so, I guess that's like the difference between a focused industry versus a functional practice.

Doug Lindsay 33:32

What you talked about, that idea of being able to connect with people with influence championing others, solving problems. It sounds like you've kind of found your space on the other side in terms of what it is that you really enjoy kind of what your purpose is, is that fair to say?

Alison Yang 33:48

Absolutely, yes, yes. And it's one of the reasons why we, why we love it so much is we really feel that we've landed in a place where we can utilize all these skills. And also, when we're assessing talent, one reason that it's just great at being you know, having been a leader in the military is that when these executives are talking to us about change, management, change leadership within the organization, we don't know it conceptually, we know it practically from our time in service. So, we know if they're just blowing smoke, or, you know, so we found that very valuable and, and it's really cool. I mean, I think, and this is part of you alluded to our veterans article, we’re just having access to folks like Scott Kirby, Greg Johnson, who know of these search firms, because that's how, you know, that's how they hire people, basically. So, it's been really neat, not only just being able to practice something that we love, but then also be able to talk to really incredible people.

Doug Lindsay 34:53

Yeah, and you hit on that piece of being able to not just talk about it, but kind of share your experiences. They're being able to kind of really understand, you know, at different levels in terms of what it is that they're looking for, what that means, what change management actually looks like in a large organization. Because even though you may not have been at the, at the geo level instituting those challenges you were at the implementation level of much of that change, and, and what that looks like. And I think that gives a different credibility of being able to say, hey, yeah, kind of been there, done that and talk about it that way, whether it's a CFO or industrial or whatever that is, right?

Paul Yang

Absolutely.

Doug Lindsay 34:53

With that in mind, what are some of the challenges or mistakes that you see leaders making today, just kind of curious in what you're seeing, and what you can talk about, and then we'll kind of talk about maybe some more of the effective things on the other side?

Paul Yang 35:45

Maybe it'll be trends, or sometimes things that kind of speak out to us as being on the search side. So, one of the things that I know that if an individual jumps from one company to another company too frequently, and I think that that could be that could mean a lot of things, right? It could mean that an individual was, you know, kind of in an ecosystem of a private equity firm, and they're buying and selling companies and moving from one company to another, which is fine, and you can speak to that. But if it's not in that situation, then it sort of signals that someone maybe hasn't done their full due diligence on an opportunity before, before taking on that role. And so that's something that I would say doesn't usually reflect too positively. And my advice, I think like springing from that would be, it has been, we've talked to plenty of folks that were where this happens, where maybe they land, they find themselves in a situation, or in a company that they might not like or a specific role that they might not like, it doesn't mean that they'd have to leave the company, right? It's not like it doesn't mean that there aren't other things that they can try. And so, my advice from that particular mistake would be see what else is out there within that company. Because the consistency of moving from one, one scope of responsibilities to another within the same company, I think reflects a lot more positively than, hey, I was there for eight months, and I didn't like and I left. A better story would be, I was there for about a year, I wasn't enjoying my job. I tried, I moved here within this part of the company and that's where I really found my passion for x. And then expanding from there…

Alison Yang 37:35

Maybe some other ones that we see, people getting experience outside of their respective functions. So, as they move up within organizations, you know, Paul's got a better example of this with finance, maybe you can go into that.

Paul Yang 37:53

Yeah, so being I think this is just the product of being in the in a functional practice where one is basically talking to a lot of different CFOs and varying in varying different industries, but finding, I think, has this history of maybe being a little bit siloed so, not the case anymore, right? Where you have folks that maybe start out as an accountant, right, or maybe started in a big professional services firm, and they work their way through accounting and audit, etc. I think the best ones are the ones that maybe expand beyond just their specific functions. So, with that, what I mean by that is, maybe this is someone that is that has an accounting background but takes the time to learn other aspects and areas of the business beyond what they see behind the numbers on finance. So in like a manufacturing organization, that would mean getting close to the business, getting close to the manufacturing floor, getting close to the product, and getting close to the product and really understanding, touching, feeling and seeing the product that their business is manufacturing. Because then it really helps that particular individual really translate what the what the numbers they are working through and managing and what that really means to their client or customer base. And those that are being that are better able to speak to that I have found that are the ones that tend to be more operationally oriented, the ones that can speak more about the business and not just finance.

Alison Yang 39:30

Another big mistake that we see maybe the biggest mistake is burning bridges. And you hear that at the Academy, “Never burn a bridge”. With an executive search, we extensively vet people for our clients. So even people that look phenomenal on paper or people who show up to an interview and they have an incredible interview. Great results on paper. If you've if you've got colleagues or peers or bosses that you have, have, you know, have a bad reputation with that, we will find it, we will hear it. And, and so it all comes back to being a person of character, you know, and we see that does burn people sometimes. And you also see things that the mistakes that leaders make when it comes to interviewing for jobs, which is not being prepared, you know, not presenting in a professional manner. We've had people show up late to board meetings and been completely taken off the list as a possible candidate. So, you see all of those things.

Doug Lindsay 40:30

Alison, you had mentioned something about character and being a person of character with that, are you seeing a more interest in that area as you're going through your executive search in terms of not just about what it is that you do, but it's kind of how you're showing up? Because you both mentioned the idea of not being siloed, being broader about that understanding, jumping around kind of the footprints that you're leaving behind? Or are burning bridges, that kind of speaks to that idea of character? So, sounds like that that's resonating more with folks. Is that fair to say?

Alison Yang 41:02

Yes. Absolutely. And I wondered that when I went into corporate America, if we would see these companies that we work with these client companies, you know, would they focus on? Are they looking for people who can just drive results within a company, and I'm telling you, more often than not, we have calls where most of it is, we're looking for someone who knows how to lead people, they're gonna have to come in here and in, you know, do a lot of change management, in some cases, and to revamp the entire team. You hear that quite a lot. And it's also something we really value at Spencer Stuart. At this firm, we screen for character, that's one of our four, the four things we screen for when we assess people. So yes, there's quite an emphasis on it.

Paul Yang 41:50

And it's often, and I would add that when it comes to just pure, I'll just speak about the practice that I'm in, but like pure finance capability, especially in like a public company, right? Like that is it's all public. So, you can see like the public filings, you could look at their 10-K and look at their proxy and see their company performance and ensure that that performance is there. And it's measurable. But more often than not, what we'll find is someone that could be that maybe potentially be a high performer based off of just pure numbers and pure historical performance, will maybe meet members of the board or meet, maybe meet other members of the team in which they'd be working with on a day to day basis. And the feedback would be, “Hey, not someone that we can see ourselves getting along with and working with on a day to day basis. Or not someone I just can feel a connection or something like that”. And that usually just means that they're good, they're good finance professional, or they're good at what they do. But not really sure that this is someone that they would, you know, that would inspire others of the company. And so, to Allison's point, I think at the end of the day, there will always be like an underlying, like baseline of capabilities. But what brings someone to the next level is, is one's character.

Doug Lindsay 43:07

I kind of transitioned this a little bit to the article that you all worked on, where you look at the top CEOs. And you're, that idea of what kind of sets him apart. I know that the article focuses a lot on the kind of the veterans and leadership, but what is it that you're seeing that you're starting to go, “Here are kind of maybe the top three, four, or five things that we're seeing that really make those effective leaders different than everybody else.”?

Alison Yang 43:31

I can talk to the first two, and then Paul can talk to the last three. So, kind of tying into that article, you'll see that I'll just say broad brush. The one thing, and it's what we've talked about most of this podcast, is just interpersonal skills, how much of an importance that that is. And it's not groundbreaking, but it's very real. And it underpins most, if not all other qualities that, you know, that these top performing CEOs all have. And so, the first one that that was also highlighted in the article is a team first mentality. So, it's about as simple as it gets. It's, you know, having a team with you, like, can you bring the team along? Like is the team a part of, the part of your mission and your story? And sometimes when we talk to people, if they're all about themselves, or if they can't describe how their team, you know, how they've impacted their team, or how they brought the team along? You know, it's very obvious and very clear, and it's not. There's a lot of culture change that happens in these organizations. And if you can't have a team first mentality, that won't necessarily happen. So that would be the first one. The second is humility. Being able to understand that you're not the smartest person in the room, but having the strength to make a decision when you need to, but also making sure you're valuing all opinions and doing that so humilities the second one.

Paul Yang 45:01

Another one, this is actually something that Scott Kirby, the CEO of United Airlines, that he had mentioned when we spoke to him as we're working towards our article, but he basically, he talked about how folks that come out of the military have “no quit”. You know, if when we asked him to expand that out, he talked about how, when someone is asked whether or not they're willing to potentially make the ultimate sacrifice for this country, any other ask following that, in and out of the military becomes, I don't want to say easy, but it's going to fall short of it, right? And so, there's this idea of being resilient and understanding how to perform under pressure when there are high stakes. And so I think that would be the key third thing. There are qualities being resilient in tough times, and knowing how to perform under pressure, when the stakes are high, then the next one is maybe stakeholder management. I think it's a very common thing that we would hear both in the military and out of the military, understanding and having the ability to work with a variety of different people. And I think it kind of goes to that point of being broader than just what your function is, understanding what one decision does to the rest of the organization in the organization and how it affects others around others around you. In the military, there's so much like, connectivity between maybe like the squadron or flight or group or wing level that it naturally just happens, but out in the corporate world I think sometimes you can get siloed, when you might not see like the direct translation of how decisions are affected other people. So being able to understand who are the, in both internal and external stakeholders is, is important. I think the fifth one, Allison already talked about the change management. That's, I don't even want to say it's like a, like a common phrase, because it's almost accepted, or it's almost like, what's the phrase I'm looking for here, it's almost like you have to have it. You know, in today's day and age where there is so much change, things are moving faster than ever before, especially with AI and just incredible technologies that are out there. It's a very fast moving world. And so being able to understand that that's happening, and being able to understand how that will how that translates internal to internally to one's organization is important.

Alison Yang 47:39

When it comes to change management as well, one of the key questions we ask are the people we assess is, “Where was the business when you came in?” And, “What have you achieved since then?” So, it's since that where was it? Where is it now? And how did you do it? And so that's one of the ways that we assess for change management.

Doug Lindsay 47:59

What I'm encouraged about is that those are all things that I can get actually better on understanding humility. It may be difficult to kind of step back and do that. But each one of those five are things that I think you can actually get better on, right, you can sit or invest some time in and go, I'm not where I want to be. But I can do that. Is that fair to say?

Paul Yang 48:19

Yes, no one is perfect in any of these areas. It takes practice and it takes time. And often-times, we'd be speaking with folks, or we're on the phone or in a meeting, where we realized someone will maybe have that introspection to look back and say, “Okay, this is an area that I'm not good at, maybe it's team building”. And they maybe they're 15-20 years in their career, and they're like, “You know what, I need more experience building a team. What's an opportunity at this company, in my respective company, where I have the opportunity to do that?”, and then seeking that out and putting it into practice is a key thing of just understanding, maybe it just kind of stems from the humility piece of, I'm not the best at everything. And there's all these areas that I need to improve on. But to your point, Doug, these are all things that that can be practiced in real time.

Doug Lindsay 49:10

As you are assessing them, and as you're looking at it, whether it be from the industrial side, or the CFO, are you finding that these leaders are receptive to the feedback that you're giving them in terms of maybe some of those areas where they're, where they're not where they need to be? Are you seeing an openness and a willingness to lean in and learn about that?

Alison Yang 49:30

It's interesting, you say that, because if when they are open to hearing it, they're showing humility, you know, you assess that just in the way that they interact with you as a person, you know, are they too busy for you? Are they you know, we do often get people ask us questions, you know, “How can I be better?” I mean, you talk to executives all day, you know, what, you know, how can I be better how, you know, what, how do I present myself better, et cetera? I think, you know, if you meet a real stinker then they, it's probably they're probably not going to be as receptive to things like that. But that's just my experience.

Paul Yang 50:08

There are candidates for particular roles. You know, on any given day, there's a there's a high volume, right? So, what that means is not everybody's going to be able to get the job that they that they want. And that's just the fact of life. And so, the ones that come back and say, “Hey, I know I was a finalist, or maybe I wasn't a finalist, what feedback do you have for me? How could I have done better?” Speaking to Allison's point about being having that level are having that ounce of humility to say, “Okay, I didn't get this, but there's got to be a reason why. What are those areas? Is it the team building? Is it, did I not share enough about change management? Did I not, you know, talk about certain results, or maybe it was how I presented myself and showed up to the meeting”. They asked for that feedback. And I think that also has to do with our firm and being in our company, because we have the agency and both our clients and our candidates put that trust in us. And they look to us for that advice. And we'll be transparent a because we have to be because they need it. And it's all about uplifting others and providing the feedback to others so that they can get to where they're trying to go.

Doug Lindsay 51:15

That whole idea of humility, just kind of really resonating. I do a lot of executive coaching and there's a really fundamental difference when someone shows up wanting to learn and you know, “Hey, this is wrong. That, you know, that's not, that's not how I really am”. And so that kind of that humility to be able to sit back and go, “What is this information telling me that's going to help me as a as a leader?”

Paul Yang 51:35

Maybe I'll start by saying if you're currently a cadet working towards graduation, or you're an alumni and already graduated, you, you’re likely already a leader, and probably a good one. And so maybe that's like a good baseline to start. But Al and I, we kind of went back and forth thinking about this one and trying to figure out how do we distill both our personal individual personal lives, our combined military experience and our combined experience in the corporate world and executive search. And we thought about a little bit further, and I'll let Al share here.

Alison Yang 52:15

We're a little bit like a broken record here. But the one theme, if we could say, captures all of this is care about people. And if you care about people, your interpersonal skills are likely decent, you have the humility to set yourself aside, you have a leg up on stakeholder management, which enables you to have teams that perform under pressure and operate well through change. And it's also the difference between having people who just get the job done because they have to versus the people who get the job done because they want to. They believe in you. And they believe in the mission. And so, if you are good at caring about people, if you just care about people in general, you'll get there. And that's, that would be our advice.

Doug Lindsay 53:04

If folks want to find out more about what you're doing, or about the article that we referred to in the podcast, where can they go to find out that information?

Paul Yang 53:13

Simply just go to spencerstuart.com. That's our firm's website. It'll clearly outline different intellectual capital pieces that we've written as a firm in the past, and it’s historical as well. So, we'll provide insights on certain industries and certain functional areas in terms of trends or things that we see. And then also tell you how our firm is broken down as well. So, if there's a particular industry that you're interested in learning about, it'll point you in the right direction in terms of folks that work in that specific practice, or if you want to reach Alison and I individually to talk to us about the work that we do, feel free to find us on on LinkedIn.

Doug Lindsay 53:55

Thank you all for your insights and the work that you're doing in terms of helping to continue to mold and develop leaders and getting them into the right locations. And we appreciate you being on the long leadership podcast today.

Alison and Paul Yang

Thanks so much.

KEYWORDS

Academy, leadership, company, Air Force Academy, people, leaders, Alison, speak, championing, talk, work, Paul, executive, day, started, understanding, search, meet, good, knew

The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation