Shannon A White Joins Time To Talk with Jen

Time to Talk with Jen Graziano

(295) Shannon A White Joins Time To Talk with Jen - YouTube
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(00:00) time to talk with host Jennifer Graziano of Zion Memorial Chapel and Cox and Graziano funeral homes Jennifer is here to discuss a sensitive subject we all need to talk and think about here now is Jennifer Graziano and time to talk good morning Westchester it's 9 A.M on Monday and that means it's time to talk with me John Graziano I'm a licensed funeral director who oversees my family's funeral homes cops and Graziano are both Mamaroneck and Greenwich and the Zion Memorial Chapel of Westchester
(00:31) every week I come to you discussing important topics and sensitive matters that all of us need to pause and reflect upon at some point and through this show I hope to provide a platform to do so if you're joining us on wvox or Whitney Global Media Station we'll take questions comments and calls to 914-636-0110 good morning the Vinnie and everyone in the controls thank you, Don, for the water and good morning Facebook live viewers happy to have you join us on what looks like a sun shining Monday which is great and needed good morning
(01:03) to Tim Judge man behind the camera from greenwichlocal.com as well so yesterday my guest and I braved that crazy weather um my clothes and coat are still wet hanging up but it was for a great cause we were helping the seniors of the Greenwich Community have important tools for aging and you put on a wonderful program through Round Hill Community Church where you also are a pastor as one of the many hats that you wear it's truly welcome my guest Shannon White good morning Jen wonderful to be
(01:38) here with you and I'm so glad you do this show I well thank you and this whole show was about having uncomfortable conversations and making subjects approachable and easy to have and encouraging dialogues between families so you basically are the show-like this is what we've been trying to do now for eight years and then I come across this book The Invisible conversations with your aging parents and you had no choice but to come on there we go I know and that actually came out of necessity it's an 11 year old book but it's still
(02:12) relevant exactly and I said that this morning on the morning show that you I I mean I know you wrote this again about a decade ago but every piece of information in here is just as relevant today as when you wrote it and in 10 years from now we can pick this up and still be having the same conversations so I credit you this is really a manual that you know it's like a Bible it's not it's still relevant it's born out of real-life stories with people and it actually it wrote itself in four months time
(02:42) when I left Greenwich last time back in 2014. it really wrote itself I used uh stories that people gave me permission to share uh change their identities and um so it's relevant to the community of your listenership so I I want to get into you a little bit again you wear many hats you are an Emmy award-winning journalist people might recognize we like to bump you together on the show but um Emmy nominated but you might recognize her beautiful face and voice uh you've been you were with News 12 as
(03:16) an as a reporter for many years yeah and yours that's a freelance but I was a regular freelance so I worked anywhere from one to five days a week wow yeah um and then you are with Round Hill Community Church in a pastoral capacity you are your title there is Pastor for Spiritual Development so it's a fancy word for the associate pastor but since I've been around I've been ordained for 32 years now and uh they didn't want to call me an associate they wanted yeah well I I like I like
(03:47) the title for sure and through your work with people through the church you must have really seen over the years um the issues that come with aging I mean age is a blessing age is a gift but with age comes a struggle Sometimes life is taking a lot away from you um adult children are struggling with parents there's a fight to maintain autonomy there's a fight to give care when do we bring care in what care do we bring you must have had a front line to really see a lot of what the aging process can do it's true not only as a
(04:26) pastoral care provider but also in my own family so you know these come out of my own stories of things as my father died 30 years ago my mother just died a year and a half ago so the conversations that need to be had with people as they age so that they can maintain as much power and control in their lives as possible because what we oftentimes see and they mentioned the panelists talked about it yesterday is that people get more isolated sometimes and if they're unresolved conversations um that that can keep people
(05:01) disconnected at a time when people need to be connected the most and we just witnessed what we just lived through I I was saying one of the greatest parts of yesterday was simply just being there and seeing the seniors I mean I used to attend events like that so frequently I saw people that I hadn't seen in three years yesterday and that was so wonderful but the isolation the impact on seniors you know especially those who weren't tech savvy right you know aren't they I mean thank goodness for Facebook but our youth that the
(05:31) the ability you know to log on and do video play dates with friends you know even people we would have virtual wine parties we'd get together but for seniors, the lack of physical contact being unable to hug somebody to see your grandchildren is probably caused so much cognitive decline amongst seniors the isolation things left unsaid really terrible so true and whether it's families or friends I mean people we really pride ourselves as well as other community communities of faith of really helping to create a community in the
(06:13) worship space when people couldn't even come to worship spaces yeah that it's it yeah I mean it's time to move forward um and again I credit I credit you for taking that step yesterday I loved your dedication by the way dedicated to families who yearn for deeper connection during all stages of Life ultimately having difficult conversations brings you closer right and so one of the stories that I told is um in the recent newspaper articles was the story with my mom who when I was writing this book she was
(06:47) about to go undergo surgery she was in her 70s at that point she lived in Texas at that time okay and she said I said okay Mom I know I've been your health care power of attorney and I just want to check in with you before you went to surgery and she said well what and she said well I changed it this time and I just I had to kind of since I claim that I'm so good with these I'm like okay be conscious of my own feelings so that it doesn't get in the way and I just said well why don't you tell me what happened she goes well I
(07:18) didn't and I'm like why didn't you tell me because I didn't want to hurt your feelings and I went Mom this is not about hurting my feelings I'm an adult I can really handle it tell me what's going on she goes well your sisters didn't think that you would consult them if something were to happen and I said well really this is about carrying out your wishes right so that's kind of true if you had if your wishes had differed from what they were saying right so but what happened because she took the risk to
(07:45) tell me that and because I was able to be conscious of my own feelings to not get in the way we ended up getting more authentic together and that changed the last 10 years of our relationship together to really be able to open it wow yeah you know from that little vignette there's so much that comes from it and I see this often in my line of work as well you have four kids you'll have five opinions and it's always who is the ringleader and when you're on the other side it becomes difficult because
(08:21) as a professional, you're not looking to get in between that but it's who do you listen to who takes charge and what do you do if all the siblings are not on the same page I've seen this in my own family I mean I only have one brother thankfully we're close um but I've seen it with my parents and their siblings I've seen this um what do you do in these situations where there are multiple children only one mom and only one Dad how do you start to navigate the path what had initially
(08:50) made you mom's choice and talk a bit about that shift and so yeah it's complicated I have three sisters okay I love them all, my older sister and her husband had financial means enough to be able to care for my mother at her end of life okay um chose to do that and we weren't the rest of us weren't in that same financial position we did other things to be in contact um and so that caused some deep feelings about were we all stepping up and that kind of thing and there was a rift and so a break in communication for
(09:28) a few years which was very very painful it is and it and it just compounds you know what Mom or Dad's illness is now compounded Yeah by that so your advice in situations like this I'd have to imagine is I mean do you say let's just lay it on the table put our cards on the table talk about the source of the rift at like get to the point where we're understanding what each other is thinking and feeling because oftentimes I think there's miscommunication that breeds contempt there's lack of
(09:56) communication that breeds contempt so I'm always an advocate of let's call out the elephant in the room lay it on the line understand where each person's coming from and hopefully that gets you to the middle ground well that's for someone like you who wants to talk it out there are many people that don't want to talk it out right oh I'm well aware that's assuming right and I'm sure you see it in your business all the time I just recently did uh internment and they said if one sibling comes the other
(10:24) sibling's gonna leave and then determine so you know it's so question it needs to be said and what are the decisions that can be made on behalf of the parent while they're still alive and some things may not be worked out until much later so they research shows that most people like 30 or more people still are coming out of a parent-child relationship kind of thing from childhood and if those things are in the way it's almost like a tidal wave that prevents you from communicating adult to
(11:02) adult whether it's with your sibling I mean one of the stories I tell in here is an attorney talk to me in the writing of this book who said you know was mad at the father or the mother because they had given private school education to one granddaughter and not to the other and so there was this Rift well how do you get through that if one party's not willing to own that stuff because that's very those are young feelings right and also one party might not be aware I mean you know I I like to think and maybe it's
(11:35) overly simplistic but I think people are well-intentioned people do the best they can I don't think parents set out to hurt child A in favor of child B may be circumstances allow them to do something for A that they could no longer do for B but the point is if you're harboring resentment for so many years the other party doesn't necessarily know the origin of the resentment uh you know what's so funny one of the great things I think you come I come from this family where we left nothing unsaid I mean it
(12:05) was blessing honesty and you know sometimes maybe we were a little loud and you know our Italian came out but you know it just you're always you know where you stand with people and I value that so much and I think that if we don't you know those issues that you're discussing they'll carry with you your whole life and they'll really inhibit you from having deep connections with other people as well I mean if you're carrying this childhood trauma or burden it's going to impact your
(12:34) relationships when it comes to marriage um friendship so you know I think that that could be a separate show that everybody needs to do some internal mental emotional housekeeping before my dad died at age 55. he had he was young he had cancer and showed up for the second time he had been president of Barclays Bank in the United States he was a very successful man but he was also a miserable and angry man and so it was terrifying growing up in his house and before he died my therapist I was working with at the
(13:09) time said you need to go tell him what it was like growing up in your house in in the house and that was that broke a family rule because in our house you didn't do anything to upset dad because you never knew her dad was carrying over into my adult life right right so I went down I was living in Princeton New Jersey I went down to um Charlotte North Carolina and told him he had had a laryngectomy at that point and I just said Dad I've always been afraid of you and what's important is for you to know it hasn't held me back
(13:41) that I'm fine and that there's love and peace and forgiveness so he died Freer it was the most honest conversation we'd ever had yeah and I literally grew up from age 13 when the last abusive incident happened to adulthood so that it literally freed Me by being able to have an honest Frank conversation with no bitterness I mean I had done enough of my own work you had done your healing um and wow wow I mean and I credit you for sharing that and I think it it's it has to have enabled you to become a
(14:18) very highly functioning adult emotionally healthy a better parent to your own child all there's so much good that stems from releasing and saying the things that are uncomfortable leaving things unsaid just you know if you don't deal with something now it will deal with you later and for some in some situations it may not be appropriate to say it directly to that person you may need to say it to an empty chair or write a letter yeah or a therapist right but and you know I one of the books I just read discussed it was a book
(14:51) entitled anti-cancer and it was about how emotions really there's a scientific Nexus between the emotions we carry and bottle up and the progression of that particular disease it was fascinating and they talked about people who released emotions who spoke to a therapist who really was able to meditate or get things off their chest and not keep them so internalized really yielded better health effects so again so much good comes from that you know Shannon often we assume that people on the other side don't want to
(15:28) talk about what's uncomfortable but in your research and doing this do you find that seniors really want to have these conversations and it's the adult children or caregivers that are the ones who are you know we're too uncomfortable with it so over the years I've done a lot of book talks on this and hands down it's the aging parents that buy this book give it sometimes even hide it and I've heard hide it in their drawers and second hand I need to talk really really is that because they may
(16:03) because whether it's that the adult child doesn't want to face that their parent is getting older and may die soon a lot of people who are getting closer to death we're all getting closer to death but a lot of people that are seniors have come to terms with the fact that yes their life is finite they want to live as freely and as well as that they can and it's their adult children as you say that are blocking them from being able to continue to have that connection so one of some of the things that I do are
(16:37) here are the questions to ask for instance you know when um uh one woman was having a hard time this is the one that's just come into my mind right now um this was her daughter was dealing with when do you take the keys and her mother once said I want to keep my car she was living in assisted living and the daughter was very generous and she said let's just see okay for six months she kept saying let's just see and they would drive the car around the Assisted Living parking lot until the mother couldn't find the spot anymore
(17:12) and then it was not everybody has the patience of six months and I know that's a good idea right so yes I mean I think there's such again there's a struggle between the loss of Independence and autonomy yes and the role reversal that's really hard imagine this you know your mother I am a mother we care for our children I have one child and okay so you know that's parenting of a different nature it's just you're all in no one else has your attention the thought of one day her doing that
(17:45) for me it made it already it prematurely disturbs me it's just out of order so you can imagine how the parent feels you know when that role reversal comes in however there are valid concerns and they become safety issues how do we reconcile that that wait and see the approach the best you know that that we or do you have to sometimes come in and drop the hammer and say this is no longer safe and just suffer the emotional consequences well that's a good question and particularly around driving um I think that's a very Sticky Wicket
(18:21) because there are some people who can safely drive into their 80s you know or even I know some people that drive in their 90s well it also comes down to what you can do and what you should do right well and so what some people have said through my time is that it's often better to have a doctor be the one to lay down the final law or when they have to go back to um renew their driver's license that it's the driver's it's the DMV that says you know your eyes aren't up to par so
(18:54) in that sense, there's kind of a different reality check than just the parent parental child right and it becomes you know the non-biased the objective third party like right blaming exactly well yeah because it's easier for the senior to refute at that point but I also think that again I always say you have to meet people where they are I think the adult child has to be mindful of how difficult this is even though you're well-intentioned you're doing the right thing fast forward the
(19:24) film and put yourself in those shoes take a step back for a moment imagine you know I so my mom passed young she passed a few years ago of cancer and it was a brief Illness but she wasn't able to drive during that when I mean everything happened so quickly and for her that not being able to drive the car and my mother was the most fiercely independent woman I've ever known and always out and about always like everywhere and I I used to my heart would break like driving her because I know like ultimately that was the
(20:00) the hardest thing for her like my dad taking her places you have to just take a moment I mean whereas it's obviously your concern as the child but take a moment to recognize what that's like for a parent to lose that well remember how you felt when you were 16 and you got the keys and you got it was like all of a sudden the world was opened up absolutely and absolutely when it's time to not drive anymore it's just compounded and it's one of the things that life takes away from you and you do
(20:30) a whole section on loss and the different types of loss that we have I say again age is a blessing but you know sometimes the blessing part is hard to find because life is taking so much from you your circle is dwindling your memories are fading parts of your body aren't working right and I like how you describe this is a term that I I've never heard coin but interest psychic loss it's when you look in that you know the loss of your image the loss of what you see when you look in that mirror
(21:03) um how do you navigate these losses from the perspective of again being the caregiving child trying to help the parent and then the senior themselves you know I think covid actually even exacerbated it even because there's so much unprocessed grief yes even loss of routine people into three centers yes right whether it's that and that creates the isolation grief keeps one isolated that's why grief groups are wonderful for spouses who've lost I agree widows or widowers together with other people who can share
(21:39) a common story and you overhear your story being told by someone else yes we've had a free support group at the funeral home for over two decades now I'm such a believer in it even for people who hadn't used our funeral home but it's open to the community and what you find is you know grief is very specific you know your the grief is as unique as the relationship you shared but whereas parents are trying children try to help parents your grief as an adult child is different than your grief
(22:06) as a spouse yes and often these people in the group will bond with each other because they get it if they're both widows or widowers they get it um sibling grief is different than when a parent loses a child so the bereavement groups there's just so much good that comes from them and absolutely there is a term called complicated grief yeah I learned about in seminary where if you don't work through one thing and another one the next piece of loss comes then it's it makes it more difficult at first yeah
(22:38) yeah it could even be you know an outside event in the world that large you could read about or hear something on the news that could just trigger your grief your PTSD whether it's absolutely again our counselor always says if you don't deal with grief it deals with you right um and it's so true so I think one of the things we hope that people take out of this today is getting support dealing with issues that have been bottled up inside of you whether it's a traumatic childhood experience um a bad relationship a death you have
(23:11) to release what's in you some people are really grief averse yeah they wanted to say I don't want to deal with the past is the past that's really not correct and those are the people that they don't even realize they're carrying it so heavily on them you know you think you're not dealing with it you're sweeping it under the rug but it's affecting Who You Are as a person there's a wonderful book I'm forgetting the author's name but it's the body keeps the score and it's
(23:39) written by a Harvard researcher and a psychologist and probably a psychiatrist but it talks about how the traumas that we face in childhood stay in our bodies until we process them oh yeah it's just it's like so right but when I read it I thought oh my goodness I was feeling things that I had not thought about in a long time that places where it was in my body so wow this is hysterical that I'm looking at the time I feel like you just got in this chair and we're wrapping up oh there's so much I wanted to talk to
(24:16) you but listen I know you wrote this a while ago but people have to be able to get a copy of this can we get this you can get it on Amazon okay on Amazon I'm holding this up the invisible conversations with your aging parents I strongly recommend this I actually read the book in a day but this is wonderful Shannon outlines questions that you need to ask as an advocate within in the Health Care system for your parent's things to do to encourage the stories to be told the memories to be shared before the onset of cognitive
(24:48) decline conversations to have with siblings and you know you're defining roles as caregivers it's a small book folk but it's all in here this really is a Bible for aging thank you so please visit Amazon is there a website where people can learn more about you um actually my personal websites no longer functional so there's a Church website what a beautiful church thank you oh my gosh it was I mean with those windows watching the rain yesterday was quite scary and actually yesterday's program
(25:17) will be video it was video and it'll be on there people can go and listen to it that encourage everyone Roundhill communitychurch.org.org please take a look at the wonderful panelists many of whom you're going to hear on the show I'm going to have to have you back okay you were my pleasure wonderful Reverend Shannon White and author a pastor um a journalist and truly a well-spoken well-informed expert here on the subject of having hard conversations thank you so much thank you for having me as part of the program
(25:47) yesterday too over there and this is Jen Graziano thanking you for taking the time to listen as we took the time to talk if you like the show visit us on time to talk with jen.com and sign up for the podcast have a great day everyone bye-bye